the disclosure project - ufos exist, no really!

[Meef Chaloin]

a wise man knows nothing
a fool knows everything

[fatrabbit]

The closest star to earth, aside from the sun, is Alpha Centauri, 4.3 light years away.

This means that if Alpha Centauri had exploded 4 years ago tonight we would not even see the light from the flash for about 3 or 4 more months.

Light travels at roughly one hundred eighty six thousand miles per second.

So think about it, 186 thousand miles per second and 4 years 4 months to see the flash. That's pretty far. And out of all of those stars up there in the sky that is the closest star I'm talking about.

Distance in space is so vast that our minds can not even begin to comprehend. Picture how long it would take you to walk 50 miles. Picture how far it is to the other side of the world.

Picture a single grain of sand sitting by itself in the center of a football stadium. Imagine that grain of sand is our solar system.

I'm not one for all of the alien conspiracy theories. But it's my opinion that with the universe being as mind numbingly large as it is, with all of those millions of stars you see out there in the night sky, and all of the ones you don't see, all making up their own solar systems with their own orbiting planets, with all of this vast, infinite space, well.......

It just seems silly to me to think that this planet is the only one with living creatures inhabiting it. What would be the odds of that? 1 in, well, infinity right?

And out of any other form of life that does happen to exist out there, to think that we would just happen to be the most advanced - another long shot if you ask me.

So, whether it's a piece of moss like vegetation growing on a rock on some plaet 60 billion light years away, or a race of hyper intelligent blobs just over the next galaxy, the odds that we are the only life sustaining planet in the universe are pretty slim I think.

And that is about as much thought as I put into it. I still get pissed off when I turn on the history channel and see "UFO Files".

yes but we have been industrialised about 400 years - I mean from steam technology to supercomputers in about that time, before then teechnology didn't change much in thousands of years - so most of what we know now is about 400 years worth of technological development

at the moment we already know there are things in the universe we just can't perceive, and I could totally believe that there are ways of moving through the universe that are completely different to how we travel now - we know very little really

what if one of these other worlds out there didn't have dinosaurs and the bi-pedal brainy beings evolved 65 million years ago? that's a lot of time to discover some freaky shit if we can go from steam power to genetic engineering in a few hundred years

And plenty of time to destroy themselves.

[Emissary]

a wise man knows nothing
a fool knows everything

very apt, and very true also. Anyone who thinks they have the world and its goings on figured out because of something they read by another perfectly fallible human is truly a fool.

if life still exists on this planet in 1000 years we will seem even more technologically impotent to them than neanderthal man seems to us. i think people forget they are a spec of grain in the desert of history.

[forge]

The closest star to earth, aside from the sun, is Alpha Centauri, 4.3 light years away.

This means that if Alpha Centauri had exploded 4 years ago tonight we would not even see the light from the flash for about 3 or 4 more months.

Light travels at roughly one hundred eighty six thousand miles per second.

So think about it, 186 thousand miles per second and 4 years 4 months to see the flash. That's pretty far. And out of all of those stars up there in the sky that is the closest star I'm talking about.

Distance in space is so vast that our minds can not even begin to comprehend. Picture how long it would take you to walk 50 miles. Picture how far it is to the other side of the world.

Picture a single grain of sand sitting by itself in the center of a football stadium. Imagine that grain of sand is our solar system.

I'm not one for all of the alien conspiracy theories. But it's my opinion that with the universe being as mind numbingly large as it is, with all of those millions of stars you see out there in the night sky, and all of the ones you don't see, all making up their own solar systems with their own orbiting planets, with all of this vast, infinite space, well.......

It just seems silly to me to think that this planet is the only one with living creatures inhabiting it. What would be the odds of that? 1 in, well, infinity right?

And out of any other form of life that does happen to exist out there, to think that we would just happen to be the most advanced - another long shot if you ask me.

So, whether it's a piece of moss like vegetation growing on a rock on some plaet 60 billion light years away, or a race of hyper intelligent blobs just over the next galaxy, the odds that we are the only life sustaining planet in the universe are pretty slim I think.

And that is about as much thought as I put into it. I still get pissed off when I turn on the history channel and see "UFO Files".

yes but we have been industrialised about 400 years - I mean from steam technology to supercomputers in about that time, before then teechnology didn't change much in thousands of years - so most of what we know now is about 400 years worth of technological development

at the moment we already know there are things in the universe we just can't perceive, and I could totally believe that there are ways of moving through the universe that are completely different to how we travel now - we know very little really

what if one of these other worlds out there didn't have dinosaurs and the bi-pedal brainy beings evolved 65 million years ago? that's a lot of time to discover some freaky shit if we can go from steam power to genetic engineering in a few hundred years

And plenty of time to destroy themselves.

and come back many times over

[friend_kami]

mm, the idea that we are alone in the universe is quite idiotic. but considering the vast distances in space, the idea of another species to not only find us in this infinite box of sandgrains, but also to construct something that boasts enough energy to be a propulsion system allowing comfortable deep space travels and then actually come here time after time after time, all in different shapes and forms, thats even more idiotic.

There's a great special they play every couple of months on discovery about the different dangers and theories on space travel. Once we harness fission well be part of the way there. Then theres all the extreme waves of radioactive energy to deal with. then all high speed objects with which even the ones the size of a speck of dust could rip our current shuttles in half with a direct hit. then we either figure out how to go the beyond the speed of light or how to stretch/unstretch the time continum...I dont see why its impossible, just beyond many lifetimes(well everything but the time strecthing).. einstein said its possible warp the fabric of time, i think the burden of proof falls on the people saying he is wrong at this point.

From a mathmatical perspective there has to be a bunch of other intelligent life forms that could be far older than us dealing with the same problems that really dont seem outside of our grasp. humans have been intelligent for a blip on the history timeline(100,000 years at most, thats being REAL generous). earths how many billions of years old? 4-6 billion years? how old is the universe? 14 billion years old? do some fancy math with all the earth like planets(theres alot of them) and you start to see the likely hood of it all. With how violent our civilation though I would assume intelligent life would stay far away from us.

im not saying that warping the fabric of time is impossible, especially if you consider the phenomenon time which is something that we see as linear when its not. im pretty confident that you can in theory build a timemachine, but im also pretty confident that in practice it is impossible,. the same goes for insterstellar traveling then, i firmly believe that we are not alone in the universe, to state otherwise is very arrogant. but considering the difficulties involved with interstellar traveling, the dangers you have to take into consideration when approaching near light speeds, and then the fact that we are one planet in one solar system in one galaxy that hosts life, in a universe with a near infinite number of solarsystems and stars,
that these species which has actually managed to overcome the difficulties with interstellar traveling, or even managed the vast task of bending space; for them to actually find us, and go surveying our planet, thats just preposterous.

aliens? sure.
aliens here?

hardly.
most ufo sightings are usually military objects anyways.

[queglay]

i've seen some of tsarions work, but ill give that one a go. I certainly dont dismiss what he says completely. i find him a bit wishy washy at times though. he seems to spin small quotes towards assumptions.

[Warminstrel]

Had a few 'Alien' themed trips on acid back a few years ago....

Along with some 'God' themed adventures on mushrooms....

Think it maybe points towards an area in the sub-concious, in our neurological programming that keeps humans questioning stuff they have no chance of really comprehending.

Bigger question is: Why does mankind feel the need to question such massive un-known's such as God and aliens?

Maybe our minds get tired of questioning the comperhendable, everyday stuff like poverty, famine and wars, as there are never any satifactory answers or resolutions. Maybe then our minds get all sarcastic and suggest that 'the next door neighbour maybe an alien' to awaken the apathetic grey matter somewhat.



Interesting scientifics in this thread though, my personal favourite method of travel has always been the 'folding' space used in Dune, has to be the height of lazyness. Malingering Harkonens, get a feckin job and quit the spice i say.

[forge]

but im also pretty confident that in practice it is impossible,.

my point is I don't think anyone among us and our infant civilisation is qualified to say what is impossible or not

100 years from now we will seem just as primitive as people from 1908 seem to us

we're just fortunate that the world we were born into happens to also be the one that is cracking alot of diseases and living longer than ever before, so there's a good chance we'll see some pretty amazing shit

it's exciting, that's all there is to it.

[Moody]

The closest star to earth, aside from the sun, is Alpha Centauri, 4.3 light years away.

This means that if Alpha Centauri had exploded 4 years ago tonight we would not even see the light from the flash for about 3 or 4 more months.

Light travels at roughly one hundred eighty six thousand miles per second.

So think about it, 186 thousand miles per second and 4 years 4 months to see the flash. That's pretty far. And out of all of those stars up there in the sky that is the closest star I'm talking about.

Distance in space is so vast that our minds can not even begin to comprehend. Picture how long it would take you to walk 50 miles. Picture how far it is to the other side of the world.

Picture a single grain of sand sitting by itself in the center of a football stadium. Imagine that grain of sand is our solar system.

I'm not one for all of the alien conspiracy theories. But it's my opinion that with the universe being as mind numbingly large as it is, with all of those millions of stars you see out there in the night sky, and all of the ones you don't see, all making up their own solar systems with their own orbiting planets, with all of this vast, infinite space, well.......

It just seems silly to me to think that this planet is the only one with living creatures inhabiting it. What would be the odds of that? 1 in, well, infinity right?

And out of any other form of life that does happen to exist out there, to think that we would just happen to be the most advanced - another long shot if you ask me.

So, whether it's a piece of moss like vegetation growing on a rock on some plaet 60 billion light years away, or a race of hyper intelligent blobs just over the next galaxy, the odds that we are the only life sustaining planet in the universe are pretty slim I think.

And that is about as much thought as I put into it. I still get pissed off when I turn on the history channel and see "UFO Files".

yes but we have been industrialised about 400 years - I mean from steam technology to supercomputers in about that time, before then teechnology didn't change much in thousands of years - so most of what we know now is about 400 years worth of technological development

at the moment we already know there are things in the universe we just can't perceive, and I could totally believe that there are ways of moving through the universe that are completely different to how we travel now - we know very little really

what if one of these other worlds out there didn't have dinosaurs and the bi-pedal brainy beings evolved 65 million years ago? that's a lot of time to discover some freaky shit if we can go from steam power to genetic engineering in a few hundred years

Yes many of those beliefs are old. Time and space are one continuum now as proposed by Einstein and proven in recent history. Further, quantum ideas completely change the theories around space and the misunderstanding of distance in it. The tools we use to measure everything directly affect the results and shape our beliefs.

[gjm]

...in exactly the same way they defend ufo's and aliens.

correctomondo, thats why i believe in all three theorys.

exactly, they are not mutually exclusive, despite what the religious and scientific bigots preach

Yeah...now we are on the same page. This is the point I was trying to make. If you take the subject away, God, Aliens, Evolution, and examine the thinking process, you will see that they all require the thinker to admit large gaps of secure evidence, lots of 'therefore' assumptions and eventually reverse justification for their positions. To use a common phrase, they all require 'leaps of faith.'

The reason why 'God' talk is harder or meets with more opposition is essentially the ethical overtones, historical and personal. Its easier to talk freely about Evolution and Aliens because scientific examination requires less immediate personal ethics (lots of big picture ethics though).

What I eventually wanted to propose was, if the thought process is the same, then there are only 2 options for the thinker.
1. You accept all three posibilities.
2. You deny all three possibilities.
Rationally there is no middle ground. Emotionally you will find yourself siding more with one or other, but all three require the same leaps of faith.

[Moody]

correctomondo, thats why i believe in all three theorys.

exactly, they are not mutually exclusive, despite what the religious and scientific bigots preach

Yeah...now we are on the same page. This is the point I was trying to make. If you take the subject away, God, Aliens, Evolution, and examine the thinking process, you will see that they all require the thinker to admit large gaps of secure evidence, lots of 'therefore' assumptions and eventually reverse justification for their positions. To use a common phrase, they all require 'leaps of faith.'

The reason why 'God' talk is harder or meets with more opposition is essentially the ethical overtones, historical and personal. Its easier to talk freely about Evolution and Aliens because scientific examination requires less immediate personal ethics (lots of big picture ethics though).

What I eventually wanted to propose was, if the thought process is the same, then there are only 2 options for the thinker.
1. You accept all three posibilities.
2. You deny all three possibilities.
Rationally there is no middle ground. Emotionally you will find yourself siding more with one or other, but all three require the same leaps of faith.

Very polar idea you have there.

[Homebelly]

What I eventually wanted to propose was, if the thought process is the same, then there are only 2 options for the thinker.
1. You accept all three posibilities.
2. You deny all three possibilities.
Rationally there is no middle ground. Emotionally you will find yourself siding more with one or other, but all three require the same leaps of faith.

I don't know if you realize this or not, but what you have described here is essentially Pascals Wager.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager ... I'm not sure i'm totally on board with it as it makes a lot of cultural assumptions when applied to these kinds of topics..

[gjm]

Very polar idea you have there.

I know. Its, as you pointed out, just an idea. It is however worth an honest look.

The process of 'coming to know what you know' is generally not discussed. People often make statements of fact (that are actually emotive conclusions) and wonder why they end up arguing with people.

Even more astounding is the number of people who make statements of 'Truth' without attempting to trace the thought process back to any sort of objective position.

An even more interesting question is 'how do I know what I know is universally true?'

[Moody]

Very polar idea you have there.

I know. Its, as you pointed out, just an idea. It is however worth an honest look.

The process of 'coming to know what you know' is generally not discussed. People often make statements of fact (that are actually emotive conclusions) and wonder why they end up arguing with people.

Even more astounding is the number of people who make statements of 'Truth' without attempting to trace the thought process back to any sort of objective position.

An even more interesting question is 'how do I know what I know is universally true?'

Well said!

[Homebelly]

This is the point I was trying to make. If you take the subject away, God, Aliens, Evolution, and examine the thinking process, you will see that they all require the thinker to admit large gaps of secure evidence,

This is just not true when it comes to Evolution.
The real issue is the misunderstanding of the meaning of the word THEORY in a scientific context. Most people substitute the word theory in place of the word Hypothesis, and so this is where every thing starts going off the rails.
In the scientific context Evolution is a well documented and established set of facts that point toward the continued development of the "theory of evolution".