Democracy still works. Bill a no go

[forge]

....the first step has got to be to get trading going again, which really is/was relying on the bailout - everything else, including the politics, will follow.

I don't get this part.... seems like if stock prices tank, that's just a great opportunity to buy stocks....buy low, sell high! Seems like that in itself will stimulate the stock market. I was thinking this all day yesterday, and I read the news today and the markets are rebounding. I don't know nearly enough about economics, but it seems like things will correct themselves....am I wrong?

yeah I know very little and have been wondering about this - my guess is people worry they won't go back up again and no one wants to get stuck with a sinking ship

[ethios4]

My other question, and this is gonna sound really dumb, is.... where does the money go if you take a loss on stocks? For example, say I have $1000 worth of stock in a company. The next day it is worth $600. Where does that $400 go? Is it just lost? Does the stock market destroy money?

[forge]

My other question, and this is gonna sound really dumb, is.... where does the money go if you take a loss on stocks? For example, say I have $1000 worth of stock in a company. The next day it is worth $600. Where does that $400 go? Is it just lost? Does the stock market destroy money?

if you do nothing with it then it could go up again provided the company doesn't go under I guess

for some perspective on the current situation: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/p ... TNMostRead

Monday's market plunge may have been the worst point drop ever for the Dow Jones Industrial Average, but in percentage terms it came nowhere close. It dropped 7% on Monday, or just one-third as much as the 22.6% decline in the 1987 crash.

[mikemc]

My other question, and this is gonna sound really dumb, is.... where does the money go if you take a loss on stocks? For example, say I have $1000 worth of stock in a company. The next day it is worth $600. Where does that $400 go? Is it just lost? Does the stock market destroy money?

The reason stock prices go down is because people are selling. The reason they are selling is because they are moving their money into something less risky (like bonds). You don't lose money until you sell a stock for less than you bought it for, but the people that are holding stock are seeing a potential for loss as it drops.

So the money is "evaporating" out of the stock market, but not necessarily completely.

Also, this looks like a good, simple explanation of the whole bailout thing.

http://www.coshoctontribune.com/apps/pb ... newsfront2

[NorthernMonkey]

hmmm, the markets dont seem to be doing to bad today do they. maybe thats because this whole things is a big fraud. the market is going through a realignment and doesn't need george bushes stimulating package after all. what a suprise.

They are recovering SLIGHTLY because there is further talk of action - probably a repackaged bail-out. If that fails they'll plummet again.

[NorthernMonkey]

....the first step has got to be to get trading going again, which really is/was relying on the bailout - everything else, including the politics, will follow.

I don't get this part.... seems like if stock prices tank, that's just a great opportunity to buy stocks....buy low, sell high! Seems like that in itself will stimulate the stock market. I was thinking this all day yesterday, and I read the news today and the markets are rebounding. I don't know nearly enough about economics, but it seems like things will correct themselves....am I wrong?

yeah I know very little and have been wondering about this - my guess is people worry they won't go back up again and no one wants to get stuck with a sinking ship

Correct. Stock prices are falling because investors are losing faith in the markets (and have huge concerns about the bad debts floating around a lot of companies) - sure you could buy low, but who's going to buy high if no-one's investing? The risk is do you hold onto them and hope they go up in value when the markets recover or lose your investment because the companies you invested in have collapsed?

[NorthernMonkey]

The reason stock prices go down is because people are selling. The reason they are selling is because they are moving their money into something less risky (like bonds). You don't lose money until you sell a stock for less than you bought it for, but the people that are holding stock are seeing a potential for loss as it drops.

So the money is "evaporating" out of the stock market, but not necessarily completely.

Also, this looks like a good, simple explanation of the whole bailout thing.

http://www.coshoctontribune.com/apps/pb ... newsfront2

Prices are also dropping because they are being (effectively) re-valued at a lower price because a) the companies are worth less and b) no-one wants to own the shares, i.e. they are difficult to get rid of.

[deva]

My other question, and this is gonna sound really dumb, is.... where does the money go if you take a loss on stocks? For example, say I have $1000 worth of stock in a company. The next day it is worth $600. Where does that $400 go? Is it just lost? Does the stock market destroy money?

Money is virtual now. It has no existence. You and I mostly think of money as a substance, dollars, but most money isn't.

So that $400 was never really there in the first place.

Finance used to be the business of developing production. Now it is mostly a self contained gambling operation where money is made betting on whether money is being made. It is a ponzi scheme.

[NorthernMonkey]

My other question, and this is gonna sound really dumb, is.... where does the money go if you take a loss on stocks? For example, say I have $1000 worth of stock in a company. The next day it is worth $600. Where does that $400 go? Is it just lost? Does the stock market destroy money?

To answer your question, the $1000 of stock you own has a valuation of $1000 - you will only realise the true worth when you sell it. If you bought a property for $200,000 and a year later it was valued at $250,000 and a year later you sold it for $150,000 (because that was the maximum offered for it), you have lost $50,000 of your initial investment.

[deva]

deva, I can agree with you on many points and I do agree with you that this bill was not acceptable as originally written and not as amended as of recent, but my point is that this is not a victory by any means, because no one has won anything.

The parts that I don't agree with you on are that you make it seem as though Wall St. is separate from the rest of the country and that is not true. There is much at stake, and no this is not about creating panic, but being realistic.

Regardless of whether some action is needed or not, this bill was nothing but a giveaway that would not have helped the average person at all. In fact it would have hurt the average person.

Wall Street has become a parasite feeding on society. Speculation artificially controls markets, and makes a profit from it. That profit is someone elses loss (the average joe so to speak)

Wall Street no longer finances production. It manipulates money to create imaginary wealth and uses that imaginary wealth to steal peoples real resources.

This is completely obvious as wall street financiers have been raking in billions as the country goes to shit, In other words, they are stealing the nation blind. They should all be hung by ropes from trees. Giving those criminals a huge pile of unaccountable money is complete stupidity.

What can or should be done to help the country is an entirely different question, but that question is not being discussed in this bill.

[NorthernMonkey]

deva, you've posted a lot of your views on here so I'd like to know what your credentials are - what is your exposure, experience and knowledge of financial markets based on? Do you work in the industry?

[deva]

hmmm, the markets dont seem to be doing to bad today do they. maybe thats because this whole things is a big fraud. the market is going through a realignment and doesn't need george bushes stimulating package after all. what a suprise.

They are recovering SLIGHTLY because there is further talk of action - probably a repackaged bail-out. If that fails they'll plummet again.

and they need to plummet... that is the market at work... something is overvalued, people realize it, wont buy, price comes down to more accurately reflect its value.

throwing a bunch of money (what has been going on for a while) can prop the price up artificially high for a short time, but then because of the further debt incurred, and the further devaluation of the dollar due to printing lots of money, the fall will be even greater.

better to face the truth now... medicine is bitter and we have let the sickness go on for quite some time

[deva]

deva, you've posted a lot of your views on here so I'd like to know what your credentials are - what is your exposure, experience and knowledge of financial markets based on? Do you work in the industry?

Mostly I have my eyes open and think for myself...

I also happen to have a father who is a respected economist, who has been written up in forbes, spoken numerous times before congress etc. A few years ago we had bitter arguments over this stuff. I was predicting exactly what is happening now and he was calling me a nut case. A while back he said to me, 'you were right' and now he is saying he thinks the whole thing needs to collapse because it has become so corrupt that it is unfixable... You can hardly imagine what a shock it is to hear him say that. Anyway, arguing with someone with his level of education made me have to learn something about it. Still, even before I knew much of anything about this stuff, before I could speak some of the financial lingo, I could see what was happening. It is not complex stuff really.

It is a clever ploy by the priests to make something seem complex. The apparent complexity allows the lies to be told. It makes people not trust their guts cause all this financial stuff is above the average person. That is bullshit. People know when they are getting ripped off.

[NorthernMonkey]

I also happen to have a father who is a respected economist, who has been written up in forbes, spoken numerous times before congress etc. A few years ago we had bitter arguments over this stuff. I was predicting exactly what is happening now and he was calling me a nut case. A while back he said to me, 'you were right' and now he is saying he thinks the whole thing needs to collapse because it has become so corrupt that it is unfixable... You can hardly imagine what a shock it is to hear him say that.

ffs.

[Emissary]

hmmm, the markets dont seem to be doing to bad today do they. maybe thats because this whole things is a big fraud. the market is going through a realignment and doesn't need george bushes stimulating package after all. what a suprise.

They are recovering SLIGHTLY because there is further talk of action - probably a repackaged bail-out. If that fails they'll plummet again.

its scare mongering, the market needs to correct, it will do so, some will go out of business. and so they should. pumping money into a dead monkey doesn't bring it back to life. t makes it eyes pop out of its head and blood spew from its simian rectum . If this bill passes it will be 10 times worse than if it doesn't.