Ableton Forum

let me explain what i meant by trickle down. minimum wage, is basically a tax on all business. what happens every time minimum wage has been has been raised in our lifetimes? Business that have minimum wage workers raise the price of their goods and services, generally proportionally slightly higher than the labor cost increase(think about the cost of milk). which in turn causes all other business to increase their goods and services. who benefits?

So if big business gets this "low" 3 percent tax hike does anyone here honestly think they are going to suck up the loss? hell no. they will pass that on to the consumers.

Now ok so some shmuck farmer whos making 250k a year has to pay 3% more on his business tax, not a big deal right? but now all goods and services required now cost 8-12% more. to top that all off people arent buying as much of their product so they have to lower their price. that in turn starts a industry wide drop in price driving profits even lower while their breaking their backs trying to keep the farm. this situation happens every time the "rich" are taxed more. the people hit hardest are small business owners and consumers. this does not stimulate the economy. Isnt corporate tax already around 50% anyways? How many of our jobs will get outsourced because of the additional money Big business will save? how is this good for our economy?

Again I think both parties are liars and theives. who are getting better at demonizing big business when they are the ones stimulating and driving our economy(for the most part)

everyone wants to focus our credit problems on the banks. Thirty years ago you could not buy a house and only put down 2%. You were putting down at least 30-40 percent. The government intervened wanting more people in houses for more property tax. this is bullshit blame the government.

The more mature and educated I become the more I am for less government. the more I see how fucked the total system is, not just the republicans.My views are radically evolving from even a year ago. I dont want to perpetuate this system by voting for either party. just like rome our senators and representatives will be our greatest liabilities and as a nation we cant help but giving and letting them take more and more power and control.

That being said right now the only edge obama has is that it will look better to the world if we elect him. but the rest of the planet are being hypocrites and assholes for thinking down on us for bush or anyone else being elected. All their governments get away with doing nasty shit too. ours just happens to be the biggest shit taker.

And mccain has a slight edge for probably being more realistic in his approach to the economy.

So why should i vote for either of them again? they are both bad choices for everyone.

it is government for the people by the people, it is not government for the business by the business.


less government involvement in how businesses conduct themselves does not create, and is not the same as personal freedom.

it is legalized slavery.

you can be fooled into thinking what is good for the few will be good for the many, but it is a trick. and this is the trick the republicans love to pull.

they get the majority to vote in favor of a minority, when only the minority benefits.

look at the usa today.

what is good for the many is good for the many, the elite like john mccain (100 million is a lot of money) want to stay on top. it is easier to exploit people when they are down.





Your minimum wage employee working 40 hr/week 52 weeks/ year makes:

14,352 a year.

that shit ant trickling to this worker.

who can live on that?

fair living is a tax on business?

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm
$13,624 a year, before taxes and other deductions.

that is, if the lazy fuck only has one job.

ThrowAway wrote:Isnt corporate tax already around 50% anyways? How many of our jobs will get outsourced because of the additional money Big business will save? how is this good for our economy?

That's misleading because the base tax on business is higher here, but the system of write-offs makes the effective tax much much lower. The outsourcing issue has more to do with trade agreements and regulation than taxes, imo.

Tone Deft wrote:http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm
$13,624 a year, before taxes and other deductions.

that is, if the lazy fuck only has one job.

i use the 6.90 rate in my town. your town would be even better at:

18,720

still can't live, and they are paying more just to be in your town.

ethios4 wrote:

ThrowAway wrote:Isnt corporate tax already around 50% anyways? How many of our jobs will get outsourced because of the additional money Big business will save? how is this good for our economy?

That's misleading because the base tax on business is higher here, but the system of write-offs makes the effective tax much much lower. The outsourcing issue has more to do with trade agreements and regulation than taxes, imo.

if they outsource american jobs, tax the shit and piss out of them. that is simply unacceptable.

dm_hawk wrote:i heard that obama eats babies.

No way, he's totally against trimester abortions, and that's when babies are at their tastiest.

doc holiday wrote:

ethios4 wrote:

ThrowAway wrote:Isnt corporate tax already around 50% anyways? How many of our jobs will get outsourced because of the additional money Big business will save? how is this good for our economy?

That's misleading because the base tax on business is higher here, but the system of write-offs makes the effective tax much much lower. The outsourcing issue has more to do with trade agreements and regulation than taxes, imo.

if they outsource american jobs, tax the shit and piss out of them. that is simply unacceptable.

Haha, true.

McCain loves ass.

That's the greatest picture ever.

ThrowAway wrote:
Again I think both parties are liars and theives. who are getting better at demonizing big business when they are the ones stimulating and driving our economy(for the most part)

This is an over-the-top generalization, that while partly true, is hardly the reason behind a focus on big business.

1. Big business is sending more and more jobs overseas.
2. Big business is not lowering the cost of their products, even through they are increasing their profit margins by increasingly sending jobs overseas.

...I'll just stick with those two statements for now, but don't worry there's more.

Here's the big problem... If you don't reinvest in the local economy, then the local economy goes bust. This doesn't mean the CEO's of the companies go bust, just the local economy. If you send work overseas, people displaced by loss of work, need new work.

We can't compete as an industrial nation, because China among other countries can always out bid us.
We can't compete in the tech industry, because our population lacks the knowledge to compete in the industry. Microsoft as an example, is here in the US, but hire people from other countries because again, our population lacks the knowledge.
We can't compete with non-specialty clerical work because it can be done cheaper in places like India, China, and the philippines. The only clerical jobs that are safe, are government ones, that are a matter of national security.

Its important to remember its not just industrial jobs that have left/are leaving, but it is jobs in general. So if those big companies are no longer supporting the local economies by employing people, then it makes no sense to provide them tax breaks.

Under Obama's plan, he's offering tax breaks to companies that create new jobs in the US and those tax breaks negate the tax increase.
Under Obama's plan, he wants to tax companies that send work overseas.

The whole idea is that if these companies are going to make big profits in the US, then they need to support the US and its future.

Either they pay higher taxes that can go towards worker re-education programs, so we can re-educate and re-direct our work force, or they can create new jobs for US citizens that will keep the local economy strong.

doc holiday wrote:it is government for the people by the people, it is not government for the business by the business.


less government involvement in how businesses conduct themselves does not create, and is not the same as personal freedom.

it is legalized slavery.

you can be fooled into thinking what is good for the few will be good for the many, but it is a trick. and this is the trick the republicans love to pull.

they get the majority to vote in favor of a minority, when only the minority benefits.

look at the usa today.

what is good for the many is good for the many, the elite like john mccain (100 million is a lot of money) want to stay on top. it is easier to exploit people when they are down.





Your minimum wage employee working 40 hr/week 52 weeks/ year makes:

14,352 a year.

that shit ant trickling to this worker.

who can live on that?

fair living is a tax on business?

every time minimum wage is raised the price of everything goes up and the market self corrects to where it should be and the only winner of this is the government by receiving more taxes. Im not fooled into reality. If you tax the rich, the poor and middle class end up paying it anyways. I forgot to add the majority of big business will take a fraction of what tax raises they would have to pay and just pay an accountant to get them out of it. this is not a black and white situation where we can just tax the big old bad guy and make everything right.

Make miniumum wage? go to school or do something else to fix that. everyone has to live with their own decisions. I feel bad for a lot of people in shitty situations, I mean I am really sensitive to a lot of situations but those who really want out, get out. bottom line.

I am in no way set in stone in any of my beliefs so feel free to fire away.

elxicano wrote:

ThrowAway wrote:
Again I think both parties are liars and theives. who are getting better at demonizing big business when they are the ones stimulating and driving our economy(for the most part)

This is an over-the-top generalization, that while partly true, is hardly the reason behind a focus on big business.

1. Big business is sending more and more jobs overseas.
2. Big business is not lowering the cost of their products, even through they are increasing their profit margins by increasingly sending jobs overseas.

...I'll just stick with those two statements for now, but don't worry there's more.

Here's the big problem... If you don't reinvest in the local economy, then the local economy goes bust. This doesn't mean the CEO's of the companies go bust, just the local economy. If you send work overseas, people displaced by loss of work, need new work.

We can't compete as an industrial nation, because China among other countries can always out bid us.
We can't compete in the tech industry, because our population lacks the knowledge to compete in the industry. Microsoft as an example, is here in the US, but hire people from other countries because again, our population lacks the knowledge.
We can't compete with non-specialty clerical work because it can be done cheaper in places like India, China, and the philippines. The only clerical jobs that are safe, are government ones, that are a matter of national security.

Its important to remember its not just industrial jobs that have left/are leaving, but it is jobs in general. So if those big companies are no longer supporting the local economies by employing people, then it makes no sense to provide them tax breaks.

Under Obama's plan, he's offering tax breaks to companies that create new jobs in the US and those tax breaks negate the tax increase.
Under Obama's plan, he wants to tax companies that send work overseas.

The whole idea is that if these companies are going to make big profits in the US, then they need to support the US and its future.

Either they pay higher taxes that can go towards worker re-education programs, so we can re-educate and re-direct our work force, or they can create new jobs for US citizens that will keep the local economy strong.

doc holiday wrote:
if they outsource american jobs, tax the shit and piss out of them. that is simply unacceptable.

I am all for this.