Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion.

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:14 pm

edge100 wrote:
shtreimel wrote:Having discussed this topic with a science oriented pal of mine (last night), he stated: "Science helps me understand the "how's" of the world, but has never answered the "why" i.e. why I exist...why I love...why I'm moved by a sunset...etc". He said that science has only deepened is awe of God
I think this stems from the fact that science is heartless, and that rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

I can appreciate this standpoint, though, and I've repeatedly said that if one's definition of 'god' is: mathematics, the laws of physics, the laws of the universe, then I have no problem with this. The existence of a number like Pi or e can baffle a lot of people, and for good reason; there is a huge amount of mystery in the infinite. But this is a FAR cry from believing that god hears and answers prayers and takes a vested interest in what we do. I know you agree on this point, Shtreimel, but I'm stating it again for posterity.

I've discussed this, or tried to, with my Fiance's father...with Dr. Schroeder. They were very clear that they believe God hears/answers prayers. Though not in the way a 3 year old (and many on this bb) state that He does.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:17 pm

you do realise you people are saying the same thing, over and over again ?

edge100 · Post by **edge100** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:18 pm

shtreimel wrote:
I've discussed this, or tried to, with my Fiance's father...with Dr. Schroeder. They were very clear that they believe God hears/answers prayers. Though not in the way a 3 year old (and many on this bb) state that He does.

Alright, lets say god answers prayers. I'm taking this thread back 20 pages, but here you go:

Why has god never once, EVER, healed an amputee?

Is it because that would be too obvious, and "show god's hand"? I would argue that removal of a tumour, which has been ascribed to prayer in the past, is just as "obvious", given modern medical techniques. But the difference is, tumours may be removed by any number of physical tools (i.e. there are physical explanations as well). What physical tools cause arms to regrow? If god really did answer prayers, you'd expect that at some point in the past 6000 years, at least one arm would have grown back in a way that could not, in any way, be explained by physical reality.

edge100 · Post by **edge100** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:19 pm

b0unce wrote:you do realise you people are saying the same thing, over and over again ?

Yup. I'm sure I'll be able to turn this thread into a book at some point.

NorthernMonkey · Post by **NorthernMonkey** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:20 pm

b0unce wrote:you do realise you people are saying the same thing, over and over again ?

Yep, great isn't it? Gets even better after a few beers

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:21 pm

its a shame some tosser on usenet didnt cococt a law to shutdown merry-go-round discussions.

No time like the present...
I call merry-go-round on this thread.

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NorthernMonkey · Post by **NorthernMonkey** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:22 pm

shtreimel wrote:
edge100 wrote:
shtreimel wrote:Having discussed this topic with a science oriented pal of mine (last night), he stated: "Science helps me understand the "how's" of the world, but has never answered the "why" i.e. why I exist...why I love...why I'm moved by a sunset...etc". He said that science has only deepened is awe of God
I think this stems from the fact that science is heartless, and that rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

I can appreciate this standpoint, though, and I've repeatedly said that if one's definition of 'god' is: mathematics, the laws of physics, the laws of the universe, then I have no problem with this. The existence of a number like Pi or e can baffle a lot of people, and for good reason; there is a huge amount of mystery in the infinite. But this is a FAR cry from believing that god hears and answers prayers and takes a vested interest in what we do. I know you agree on this point, Shtreimel, but I'm stating it again for posterity.
I've discussed this, or tried to, with my Fiance's father...with Dr. Schroeder. They were very clear that they believe God hears/answers prayers. Though not in the way a 3 year old (and many on this bb) state that He does.

Sneaks in and takes the 60th page - I've been trying for that all day

edge100 · Post by **edge100** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:23 pm

b0unce wrote:its a shame some tosser on usenet didnt cococt a law to shutdown merry-go-round discussions.

No time like the present...
I call merry-go-round on this thread.

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But we haven't solved the problem yet!

Wait...this thread was supposed to determine if there is a god, right???

Seyser Koze · Post by **Seyser Koze** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:24 pm

b0unce wrote:you do realise you people are saying the same thing, over and over again ?

Have I that it's said it's the children I feel sorry for yet?

There wqas a very interesting experiment done on prayer recently. I'll try to find the link for ye all.

It basically made different groupd of people pray for faster recovery of individuals of cardiac surgery. These groupd were from difrerrent religions form around the world. theyw ere given the first name and the first letter of the surname and asked to say the same thing in their prayers.

The surgery group, half were prayed for and half weren't, were told if they were being prayed for or not.

The half that were prayed for recovered slower than those that were not and this was put down to some kind of performance anxiety.

Not exactly scientific, nor for me particularly useful, in fact a complete waste of time, but fun none the less.

It reminds me opf when the pope got shot and claimed god has performed a miracle by guiding th e bullet in such a way that he didnt die. I wondered why he simply didnt guide the bullet away from the pope altogether or in fact turned the bullet round in mid air to shoot the shooter. Now that would have been impressive.

Did I say that its the children I feel sorry for?

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:25 pm

knotkranky wrote: Yes, for a therapist he is very prejudicial and over simplifying.

This may surprise you...you may want to sit down for this...therapists of all stripes hold biases, beliefs, values, etc. Among my colleagues, I know of a black hat wearing Orthodox psychiatrist (specializing in adolescent mental health), an openly gay psychiatrist who shares his orientation with his clients, family system therapists who believe that a family consists of a man and a woman, social workers who believe that George Bush is evil and should be tried and hung, etc., etc.

knotkranky wrote:Provocative for a therapist and clearly has a deep rooted though endearing bias for his community while showing limited experience outside of it.

That's cute. Yes I'm proud, blessed actually, to have been born and raised as a Jew. Of course, I expect nothing less from someone else who, raised in a loving family, is proud of where they come from.

knotkranky wrote:He is a very young therapist or still a student is my guess. Maybe a b.a. at the outside with low miles in the chair.

Heh heh. Not exactly...but I guess that's your version of an zinger. Again, I've challenged folks on attachment issues and children, countertransference, provided links to prove a causal relationship b/w athesim and psychotherapy...and the only rebuttal I've had is in the form of a self-help book by Dr. Scott.

Seyser Koze · Post by **Seyser Koze** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:26 pm

[quote="NorthernMonkey
Sneaks in and takes the 60th page - I've been trying for that all day

[/quote]

he has god on his side...

Seyser Koze · Post by **Seyser Koze** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:27 pm

edge100 wrote:
b0unce wrote:its a shame some tosser on usenet didnt cococt a law to shutdown merry-go-round discussions.

No time like the present...
I call merry-go-round on this thread.

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But we haven't solved the problem yet!

Wait...this thread was supposed to determine if there is a god, right???

nah, apprently it's just some kind of delusion

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:29 pm

a few papers probably covered that experiment, seyzer...but heres the guardian's take on it

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1744493,00.html

piece

(I'm dizzy already)

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:35 pm

edge100 wrote: Why has god never once, EVER, healed an amputee?

I understand the prayer thing via the Rolling Stone's Song: You Can't Always Get What You Want.

The next time I speak to my fiances father, I'd be glad to ask him, as a fan of science, how he understands how prayer works. I'll report back.

shtreimel · Post by **shtreimel** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:36 pm

edge100 wrote:
b0unce wrote:its a shame some tosser on usenet didnt cococt a law to shutdown merry-go-round discussions.

No time like the present...
I call merry-go-round on this thread.

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But we haven't solved the problem yet!

Wait...this thread was supposed to determine if there is a god, right???

Uh, "He" responded...a few days ago. So clearly, God exists...and has an Ableton account to prove it.