is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

[djadonis206]

It is the most densely populated area on this planet

This title may actually belong to Hong Kong - one of the most densely populated urban areas on the planet - just an fyi

Asia and some parts of Africa are extremely dense as far as population goes. This is a major problem for developing countries as far as planning and infrastructure go.

[Chang]

Had I merely said "you know, 'only' 16 israelis have actually been killed by qassam rockets fired from gaza since 2001" some douchefuck, probably you, would berate me for not posting a source to verify such claims.

I'm just surprised none of you waffling fairies thought to bring up such a significant number.

So I guess you are discounting the human bombs walking the streets. What's the kill ratio on those guys?

eh ?
from the first page of this thread - which I obviously need to remind you poses a question on disproportionate military responses:
"GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Israeli airstrikes pounded Hamas-ruled Gaza on Saturday, killing at least 225 and injuring 400,in what Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said was a response to escalating rocket attacks against Israel. "


Jesus H Christ, get with the program.

Easy to have disproportionate death tolls when you are covering your military targets with your own women, children and elderly as human shields.

"Hamas representative Fathi Hamad: "For the Palestinian people death became an industry, at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the Jihad fighters excel, and the children excel. Accordingly [Palestinians] created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the Jihad fighters against the Zionist bombing machine, as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: We desire death as you desire life."

http://newsblaze.com/story/200812290928 ... story.html


I think video in that link says it all. There will never, ever be peace as long as Hamas has anything to say about it.

[DGA]

Over the years, I think the ratio of Israeli lives to Palestinian lives has averaged around 1:400.

Let's hope Israel never want revenge for past events. In that case, 1200,000000 Germans better watch out.

germany is home to about 80 million people

no shit.

some of your numbers looked a bit exaggerated, so I figured to clarify.

[DGA]

Easy to have disproportionate death tolls when you are covering your military targets with your own women, children and elderly as human shields.

I think video in that link says it all. There will never, ever be peace as long as Hamas has anything to say about it.

how about finding a different way to go after the hamas, then?

[Machinesworking]

check your facts machinesnotworking

That's a patently absurd response.

As absurd as claiming that ethnic or religious ties to a place are enough reason to not be respectful towards the people of an area. I stick by my belief that there is no good reason for the selling out of the Palestinians, and the 'gift' of returning jewish people to their 'homeland'.


Being jewish has two meanings, one religious and the other ethnic. Thing is a jewish state will always be tied to the religion, and therefore in my mind, tied to concepts like Manifest Destiny and Eminent Domain. This alone is reason enough for Israel to have not been created in the first place, now that it is though, it's up to you, and subsequent generations to learn to care for the enemies oppression and well being as much as you care for your own historical oppression.
You strike me as not wanting to blame Israel at all, to see none, not a single breadth of responsibility on your side for the aggression, even though it's painfully obvious that your side does, and maybe always will have, the upper hand? IMO it's always the responsibility of the more powerful country to look at every reasonable way to resolve a dispute, even if it means giving up some notion of power. The consistent thing I see in this conflict is a total and complete imbalance of power, and your country only making the lamest of attempts to what seems like from the outside here, make yourselves look like you're giving up some power and handing over some freedoms.
Face it, with the wests backing, Israel will always out gun the enemy, (and I'm appalled really that you at one point tried to deny this??), Israel will always be the superpower in the region.
People worry about Iran, but Pakistan has been nuclear for how long??

Anyway b0unce summed it up, we have entered the bible zone, < -- and don't in any way think that doesn't include the Talmud.

[j2j]

Manifest Destiny and Eminent Domain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain

Seriously get a grip mate. Seriously.

a jewish state will always be tied to the religion, and therefore in my mind, tied to concepts like Manifest Destiny and Eminent Domain.

(edit)

I think I was overly aggressive. Let just state, Mr Machinesworking, you should try and make more learned statements, if you want to produce logical arguments. The concepts of, Manifest Destiny and Eminent Domain, have nothing to do with Israel.

[Machinesworking]

Manifest Destiny and Eminent Domain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain

Seriously get a grip mate. Seriously.

a jewish state will always be tied to the religion, and therefore in my mind, tied to concepts like Manifest Destiny and Eminent Domain.

Where were you educated? In a bathroom? You know fuck all what you are talking about.




Seriously, that is the problem with the internet. The world at large. It is also why I am so misunderstood on the net.

Educated, rationale, logical thinking, is just a rarity in this world.

You are so uneducated it is pathetic --> Machinesworking....

You aren't grasping concepts as concepts I suppose? WTF is the challenge for you to wrap your head around the idea that Israel claims land back from Palestinians and bulldozes houses down etc. with exactly the same reasoning that goes into Eminent Domain?? Are you that literal that you can't grasp that it's the same basic idea???

Are you so intellectually lazy as to not make the fucking minor jump from the concept that Manifest Destiny is, to the idea that Israel and states like it, with an obvious political and religious sense of superiority are following the same basic blueprint??

Both those concepts IMO are ripe for being used as functional analogies for current political regimes. Disagree all you want, but if you think you're some brilliant genius because my use of them as adjectives threw you off, guess again.

Honestly though, your lack of tact and basic asshole 'debate style' point firmly to your own lack of any cohesive thoughts on the matter. Why don't you try engaging the people you want to understand you instead of trying to man up on them?

You're "so misunderstood on the net." because you act like a stupid prick, quite simply.

[knotkranky]

I think MW was taking a little bit of metaphoric license there. Not unreasonable.

[djadonis206]

Yes, Eminent Domain is far from any religious context

It is used by governments, or more specifically planners to "take" property but with due compensation to the original property owner.


Really it is only used when they need to lay some new road, economic development, or much needed infrastructure (sewers, electrical wire, etc)

Some infamous cases of emininet domain are

Kelo v. New London

and

Berman v. Parker

both cases solidified the gov'ts right to do a "taking" <- i.e. eminent domain

neither case has anything to do with religion -

Eminent Domain is a tool used in urban planning and economic developement

Now, I can see how you would think it would have religious undertones but really it is just a tool



The real contention in Eminent Domain lies in the theory of the "taking" of private property only to sell it to another private party i.e. the Kelo case

[DGA]

Manifest Destiny and Eminent Domain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain

Seriously get a grip mate. Seriously.

a jewish state will always be tied to the religion, and therefore in my mind, tied to concepts like Manifest Destiny and Eminent Domain.

(edit)

I think I was overly aggressive. Let just state, Mr Machinesworking, you should try and make more learned statements, if you want to produce logical arguments. The concepts of, Manifest Destiny and Eminent Domain, have nothing to do with Israel.

I think he's spot on. Why do you object?

[swett]

......

[swett]

I will leave this region in the next year as there is no hope in living here...
I would take my family with... ..

Not to Costa Rica, I hope....

[Chang]

I'm so sorry that all this is happening.... I and many other citizens here...
I had always dreamt there will be peace here when I was older...
my parents dreamt that there will be peace when I would turn 18....
I'm almost 30...

there will never be peace.... not in my life probly....
even if there was no state of Israel... war here would continue...

You will never have peace because you are not peaceful people

I will leave this region in the next year as there is no hope in living here...
I would take my family with....

Not to Costa Rica, please...

Wow, talk about stereotyping and racist all at once. All Israel wants is peace and to be left alone, they've been persecuted for thousands of years. And Hamas? They peaceful? If Hamas had Israels military technology, there would be 1 million dead jews in a matter of days. Hamas would be carpet bombing israel 24/7 with no regard for anything.

[smutek]

All Israel wants is peace and to be left alone, they've been persecuted for thousands of years.

Israel has been in existence since 1948.

Hamas would be carpet bombing israel 24/7 with no regard for anything.

Why does that sound familiar?

[Machinesworking]

Yes, Eminent Domain is far from any religious context

It is used by governments, or more specifically planners to "take" property but with due compensation to the original property owner.


Really it is only used when they need to lay some new road, economic development, or much needed infrastructure (sewers, electrical wire, etc)

Some infamous cases of emininet domain are

Kelo v. New London

and

Berman v. Parker

both cases solidified the gov'ts right to do a "taking" <- i.e. eminent domain

neither case has anything to do with religion -

Eminent Domain is a tool used in urban planning and economic developement

Now, I can see how you would think it would have religious undertones but really it is just a tool



The real contention in Eminent Domain lies in the theory of the "taking" of private property only to sell it to another private party i.e. the Kelo case

For the record in this regard, for years, fences and walls (no doubt privately contracted) have been put up in 'problem' areas of the Gaza strip (elsewhere I believe as well) which directly cross privately owned homes, which are subsequently bulldozed. Israel has used a concept (surprise surprise) not unlike Eminent Domain to justify this. The Palestinians have often claimed that the projects were just another way to evacuate people, which is true to a degree, considering the fences are mostly for security reasons.

This is why used the concept, but obviously it's not understood as a concept well enough to not have a debate about the use of the term, instead of the practices we were originally trying to discuss. Sorry if this confused the issue, but the issue remains regardless.,