Notation in Live 9?

[MPGK]

I would hate to see Live go that way. Traditional music notation is not rich enough for electronically produced music. If you are writing musical parts for band members then Live is not really the right tool IMO. The combination of piano roll and clip envelopes is a better form of "notation" for the kind of things Live excels at.

I agree with that. Live isn't exclusively for electronic music, of course not, but it's where it's strengths lie. I wouldn't expect Sibelius are frequently asked to implement glitch plugins and such.

You're missing one vital point: Sibelius is not a DAW, it's a notation program.

[crumhorn]

Watch the Bays video I just posted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY54PDPEvvc) and imagine the power of real time looping live musicians, using "notation loops" to send notation to their screens in real time. Or just sending chord names for a rhythm guitarist to follow as you randomly change scenes or jump around in the arrangement

[wader]

I'm seriously considering going to Logic purely because of the notation feature, despite not knowing how well it performs. I LOVE Live, and have been with it for years, upgrading every time, with the full suite, but if Live is for musicians to compose, then Ableton would be missing a HUGE opportunity not to include some Notation capabilities. I'm really tired of trying to integrate Live, Sibelius & VSL... to have scores organised per track in Live would be truly awesome. If it was a properly integrated plugin as an additional purchase I would definitely buy it.

To all the folks who don't want it, ok, notation is not music and it's not required for making music, it's just a bunch of symbols, but it helps a hell of a lot when trying to construct music, and has been helping people for hundreds of years in pretty much every style.

[3phase]

I'm seriously considering going to Logic purely because of the notation feature, despite not knowing how well it performs. I LOVE Live, and have been with it for years, upgrading every time, with the full suite, but if Live is for musicians to compose, then Ableton would be missing a HUGE opportunity not to include some Notation capabilities. I'm really tired of trying to integrate Live, Sibelius & VSL... to have scores organised per track in Live would be truly awesome. If it was a properly integrated plugin as an additional purchase I would definitely buy it.

To all the folks who don't want it, ok, notation is not music and it's not required for making music, it's just a bunch of symbols, but it helps a hell of a lot when trying to construct music, and has been helping people for hundreds of years in pretty much every style.

true but its not the way to construct music in a computer..its a way t construct music on a piece of paper..

great system thou.. bt nothing that is close to urgent when you see what other problems should be solved first to get computer process streamlined.

beside..logic is a perfect workaround.. it offers many master or album compiling functionalities that make such thigs rather hard with live..

So authoring of of pieces over 1 hour with mutiple stereo or surround stems you are muc better of with logic.

And..it has your score sheet and much more precise midi input in general..

and the score editor is a real editor.. thats more than ableton ever will be able to provide.
emagic had 3 years alone in the development of theire score sheet functionality..
somewhere in the later 80´s

and the best thing.. you still can rewire live and use all the loop functions and internal instruments... works great.. you will love it..
but better run multiscreen then.. 2 screens for logic and one for live is perfect, but at least 2

[gjm]

... but its not the way to construct music in a computer..its a way t construct music on a piece of paper...

Lolz... you are talking like someone who does not know how to read or write music on paper.

[3phase]

... but its not the way to construct music in a computer..its a way t construct music on a piece of paper...

Lolz... you are talking like someone who does not know how to read or write music on paper.

true..we live in the bush in germany and never come along theese ancient high cultural concepts...

so i never learned to read and write music on paper..just crappy mathematical formulas..


actually i prefer to play and listen to music.. and when necessary the editor gives all necessary score information like note, length, dynamic, legato, tempo, measure..
only key changes are not indicated but you can mark that otherwise if you need to change the key within one clip

is it too difficould to interpretate that or do you need to transfer from your paper optical because you dont know the note names ??

[gjm]

...true..we live in the bush in germany and never come along theese ancient high cultural concepts...

These so called ancient high cultural concepts are more popular than you think. In fact, its development in much younger than your so called crappy math formulas. Notation is simply a system of lines and dots and squiggles etc that communicate ideas... exactly the same as the lines and dots and squiggles of your math formulas. All that happened was that you were surrounded by people who were illiterate when it came to the language of music, therefore you never had a chance to learn it as a language.

actually i prefer to play and listen to music.. and when necessary the editor gives all necessary score information like note, length, dynamic, legato, tempo, measure..
only key changes are not indicated but you can mark that otherwise if you need to change the key within one clip

Exactly... thats probably one of the best examples of having notation in a DAW like Live because it short cuts the manual process of doing it on paper. Most people already use a system of notation in the form of the piano roll and the way MIDI information is displayed, but try printing out a screen shot of the PR and putting infront of you while at the piano or guitar or drum kit and play from that. You will find that traditional notation is still a better carrier of information for a musician skilled on an instrument that requires fine and gross motor skills to operate it.

Because you never learned to read and write on paper I am also picking you have never formally or informally (though with serious effort) learnt to master an acoustic instrument. You will not have experienced the blindingly fast processing your brain does while it reads the notation information and sends it to your fingers and hands. You will also not have had a chance to 'think' in notation, meaning looking at the lines, dots and squiggles and hearing it in your head, or being able to hum it. You can use the 'ancient and high cultural' written forms called 'letters' in your head to form words and express ideas, and I bet you can write them on a piece of paper. However, if you moved out of the bush and did some serious schooling in the last 15 years would have communicated your ideas to your prof. by using a PC and a qwerty. You would have benefitted from all of the time saving tricks and presentation options avaliable at the time in your chosen SW program, even though you could have constructed it on paper.

Thing is, there is just masses of people around the world who are learning traditional acoustic instruments and the so called ancient musical code. There are even more learning the code of TAB when playing guitars and bases and uke's and drums etc. A lot of those people over time develop a liking for music that a program like Live can help them make. Having traditional notation available inside the DAW gives them the ability to access and use their skills more conveniently.

so i never learned to read and write music on paper...

You should give it a go now... it is amazing the things people who are illiterate in their spoken language can discover and do once they learn to read and write it.

...is it too difficould to interpretate that or do you need to transfer from your paper optical because you dont know the note names ??

Sorry, I do not know what you are trying to communicate here. English is your second language and I definitely can't speak your native tongue, but I am sure that if we were trying to exchange musical ideas via notation we would both be on the same page.

[3phase]

the blindingly fast processing your brain does while it reads the notation

great.. thats much better than theese guys that abuse theire instruments for wanking


i dont know what you want to tell me...you need live to show you the score so that you can play your acousticla instrument blindigly??

maybe you should learn to play your own tunes freely ? maybe with a bit of practice?

[gjm]

i dont know what you want to tell me...

In a nut shell I am telling you to STFU when it comes to having notation native in a DAW like Live. Your wisdom on the subject comes from being notationally illiterate and therefore lacking any personal experience to speak from.

[3phase]

yep .. my wisdom versus your blindness...

score edit..thats what a looptool daw like live really needs..sure,,urgent. In L9..
no problem ..it will be there

Can somebody bring the literate back to his room again? he needs to rest.

[gjm]

yep .. my wisdom versus your blindness...

What is this blindness you speak of?

score edit..thats what a looptool daw like live really needs...

Again, speaking out of ignorance. You are simply not aware of the thinking processes involved and so cannot engage in any creative thinking on the subject. Usually a sign that you have been in the bush to long. Where is Emmisary? I think he has a goat you could make use of

sure,,urgent. In L9..no problem ..it will be there

This is a different subject all together. I am in no rush for it, and am pretty sure it will never come. Its in the 'too hard basket' for the Abe's. If it did arrive then it would have to be very well done to compete with other notation prog's or just don't do it at all. But just because you write with crayons doesn't mean everyone should.

[3phase]

I allways enjoyed the score editor of clabs notator ...

you probably cant belive it.. even unliterate people can play symphonys with that..

thats the great thing about score editors that you can nick all the nice vivaldi licks..just as brian may did..

but... as nice that is.. its not really the point on a daw with just half developed plain midi editing.. or even an overlapp corection, or the ability to handel different midichannels in one clip..

and on top of this you want to plug a score editor?

great.. i am with you for the request.. but let them finish the daw first and fix the stage functionality and band interaction..and than.. they should allow your blindingly playing after the picture in your little editor window..


however.. thats all there in logic... why you just dont use that? before it was called logic the name of the software was notator because it had the best score/midi editor on the planet.. its an emagic speciality.. only dedicated score sheet printing software goes further... and no other daw gets close in the regards of polyphon score editing..

its a bit like requesting wheels for a boat really.. can be usefull sure...

and now back to the room ;-P

[3phase]

I am in no rush for it, and am pretty sure it will never come. Its in the 'too hard basket' for the Abe's.

so why do we argue than? i ve said much earlier that its just unlikely to happen.. and you start your unliterate attack..

sorry man.. i know what you need to know about scores on a sound engineers level..can read them to the part that i know where we are in the sheet and what is happening next..

thats is defently enough to have an judgement about the usfullness of an score editor in a daw..

usefull for some things.. but not necessary to produce or edit.. just quicker to transfer scores into midi.. ..or the other way around when you need to have real musicans playing your compositions..

and therefore we use more than one daw in the studio..

lets say like that.. if ableton ever would go for a score editor you wouldnt be happy with its functionality anyway because in the minimalistic ableton style it would appear to unliterate for you..

i would bet on that

[gjm]

but... as nice that is.. its not really the point on a daw with just half developed plain midi editing.. or even an overlapp corection, or the ability to handel different midichannels in one clip..

You still don't get it. Your request is the same as mine. I have no need for the things you want. Live is incomplete with a score editor for me. I don't want to use 3-4 SW prog's to get my job done. I would much prefer just 1.

and on top of this you want to plug a score editor?

Yup.

great.. i am with you for the request.. but let them finish the daw first and fix the stage functionality and band interaction..and than.. they should allow your blindingly playing after the picture in your little editor window..

Lolz... it will never be finished and there will always be some retarded request for a feature I just don't need.

however.. thats all there in logic... why you just dont use that?

I have Express 8, Sib 5 and GP6. Sibelius is my go to but Like I say, I want the best of both worlds. I want just one package.

its a bit like requesting wheels for a boat really.. can be usefull sure...

Bad example. As a Qualified Boat Builder and amateur yacht designer I can tell you that amphibious craft are in very high demand around the world not only for recreation, but also exploration, search and rescue and the military. Modern technology and materials and construction development are making this more of a reality.

[gjm]

so why do we argue than?

Because your opinion about the usefulness of a score editor is not mine.

and you start your unliterate attack..

Because you said "its not the way to construct music in a computer." That is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. If you had proficiency in notation to a level where you could use it as another form of creativity then you would not say what you said.

sorry man.. i know what you need to know about scores on a sound engineers level..can read them to the part that i know where we are in the sheet and what is happening next..

thats is defently enough to have an judgement about the usfullness of an score editor in a daw..

No its not. You obviously can't think musically while reading notation.

usefull for some things.. but not necessary to produce or edit..

Again wrong.

just quicker to transfer scores into midi.. ..or the other way around when you need to have real musicans playing your compositions..

and therefore we use more than one daw in the studio..

Nature of the beast isn't it.

lets say like that.. if ableton ever would go for a score editor you wouldnt be happy with its functionality anyway because in the minimalistic ableton style it would appear to unliterate for you..

i would bet on that

Depends on how they integrate it. Its the same argument as to the usefulness of session view some users of Ableton have. One lot says you buy Live for session view and another lot says they never use it.