Ableton Forum

zee verkawound wrote: It's impossible not to aspire to be "like" certain people in your life time.

True, in a childlike manner.

zee verkawound wrote:It's an inseparable part of the human survival mechanism.

No its not. Its a natural part of trying on what is modeled to you and then deciding if it fits you. Its the process of becoming an 'individual,' not survival.

zee verkawound wrote:We all aspire to be like who we perceive as being survival prone.

No. First we aspire to be like those who we have our first sense of trust with. Then when we see their flaws we aspire to be like those who get the kind of results in their lives that we want. Then, for those who examine themselves enough and who come to the conclusion that one size does not fit all, we aspire to certain traits that suit our goals/desires/makeup/values.

zee verkawound wrote: I would go as far as to state that it's simply not a healthy stance in life not to aspire to be like certain others. There is a big difference between copying and aspiration.

Disagree, you are the most healthiest when you can find a home in your own skin and continue to refine yourself as a unique individual. This has nothing to do with aspiring to be like someone yet everything to do with discovering what you can become.

Reading this thread reminded me of why I dont like meetings. Theres always someone you wish would just shut the fuck up.

Emissary wrote:Personally I believe i am no better than a crack junkie living on the street and in the same breath i am not worse than a millionaire with a boat and a mansion, and neither of those two people are better than the other. Its the way i look at life. Comparison leads to anger and depression and possibly addiction.

...it's not about being better than others... or worse..
you judge yourself by a set of standards that you got from somewhere...?!
of course any person has his own path and outlook..
but you adapt good traits.. and bad traits from somewhere..
(even if you were raised in a forest by a pack of wolves..)
'zi verkaround' (hehe.. the name gets me everytime!)
put it in a bit more clinical way..
as one might expect..

UKRuss knows it.. as he's a parent and sees his impact on his kids...
he IS the first role-model for his kids...
it's all eyes on dad..
(that's why he got to second think himself...
when the former alcohol crackheads now holier than thou from next door refused a drop...
making him take advice from the weakest people on the block)
so some of you may already be there..
being true to themselves...
(or are just ego-trippin)
but where did you get those values from ? tv ?
if you're already there.. then you should already know..
some of you may find that the structure AA NA gives you is the right way for you..
if that's the case.. more power to ya! and good luck..
not dissing the need for support groups (for a certain period)
just saying not all addictions are the same.
and shouldn't be treated the same...
it's a ridiculous concept ...
THEY MAKE YOU ADMIT THAT YOU ARE HELPLESS AGAINST YOUR OWN DECISIONS
for crying out loud !

... my true ambition ...
basically...BE my idea of a good person..be better in regards to myself..
and good traits I see in people..
try to help where I can.. and keep from getting vex..
make music...keep from getting frustrated..
positive vibes... it's an everyday struggle for me..
(as most of the time I wanna punch people in the face)
self discipline is the highest form ... finding it without structure is hard
@MW :
and yes I use cigs/coffee/weed on a daily..
and have for the last 15 years or so ...
you call it addiction.. I call it self medication...
I'm pretty cool with it.. I get by..(cough cough)

gjm wrote:

zee verkawound wrote: It's impossible not to aspire to be "like" certain people in your life time.

True, in a childlike manner.

zee verkawound wrote:It's an inseparable part of the human survival mechanism.

No its not. Its a natural part of trying on what is modeled to you and then deciding if it fits you. Its the process of becoming an 'individual,' not survival.

zee verkawound wrote:We all aspire to be like who we perceive as being survival prone.

No. First we aspire to be like those who we have our first sense of trust with. Then when we see their flaws we aspire to be like those who get the kind of results in their lives that we want. Then, for those who examine themselves enough and who come to the conclusion that one size does not fit all, we aspire to certain traits that suit our goals/desires/makeup/values.

zee verkawound wrote: I would go as far as to state that it's simply not a healthy stance in life not to aspire to be like certain others. There is a big difference between copying and aspiration.

Disagree, you are the most healthiest when you can find a home in your own skin and continue to refine yourself as a unique individual. This has nothing to do with aspiring to be like someone yet everything to do with discovering what you can become.

very well put indeed.

ThrowAway wrote:Reading this thread reminded me of why I dont like meetings. Theres always someone you wish would just shut the fuck up.

In my case that would be everyone.

zee verkawound wrote:

aisling wrote:

UKRuss wrote:.... in my 40 years I've never, ever met a person I aspired to be like. I've met plenty of people who thought they were what people should be like but that simply gave them other social problems they couldnt deal with.

.

very nice, intuitive and spot on!

Also completely untrue. It's impossible not to aspire to be "like" certain people in your life time. Just because you don't willfully decide one morning that you really want or desire to be like someone else, doesn't mean you can avoid the process altogether. It's an inseparable part of the human survival mechanism. We all aspire to be like who we perceive as being survival prone. First off of course being whomever we latch onto as a maternal or paternal figures in our lives. I would go as far as to state that it's simply not a healthy stance in life not to aspire to be like certain others. There is a big difference between copying and aspiration.

Ok, I see your point of view. I did not account for the entire psychological and sociological spectrum when I voiced my opinion.

ThrowAway wrote:Reading this thread reminded me of why I dont like meetings. Theres always someone you wish would just shut the fuck up.

ha ha .... yeah I know exactly what you mean.... there's always one who jumps at the chance to share and then drones on for half an hour about what a fuck up they are and how everything bad that's ever happened to them is because they used to drink 20 years ago.....

The "Old Timers" in meetings in my old neighborhood used to say, if you don't think you have a problem drinking, you should try some controlled drinking. A "convincer" they called it.

channelite wrote:The "Old Timers" in meetings in my old neighborhood used to say, if you don't think you have a problem drinking, you should try some controlled drinking. A "convincer" they called it.

did the "convinced" wake up with a butthurt?

ThrowAway wrote:

channelite wrote:The "Old Timers" in meetings in my old neighborhood used to say, if you don't think you have a problem drinking, you should try some controlled drinking. A "convincer" they called it.

did the "convinced" wake up with a butthurt?

nope,just sober.

True, in a childlike manner.

You know what they say, two types of geniuses, children and those who retain, their childish best qualities. The healthy use of aspiration is definitely one of those qualities.

No its not. Its a natural part of trying on what is modeled to you and then deciding if it fits you. Its the process of becoming an 'individual,' not survival.

I can play this game. "yes it is" Horse poop. Human beings are "pack" animals to begin with. We are born individuals. We go to bed individuals and wake up individuals. Aspiring to become a BETTER individual via others more so wise, skilled and learned than ourselves is what makes us survival prone.

No. First we aspire to be like those who we have our first sense of trust with. Then when we see their flaws we aspire to be like those who get the kind of results in their lives that we want. Then, for those who examine themselves enough and who come to the conclusion that one size does not fit all, we aspire to certain traits that suit our goals/desires/makeup/values.

So you do admit that everyone aspires to be like someone within the course of their lives. G, that was more or less my point to begin with.

Disagree, you are the most healthiest when you can find a home in your own skin and continue to refine yourself as a unique individual. This has nothing to do with aspiring to be like someone yet everything to do with discovering what you can become.

again, you need to figure out what "aspire" actually means. You are confusing the act of aspiration with conformity. To aspire to be better via examples of other individuals we observe is as natural as breathing good clean air and feeling better for it. Of course we are our best when we are comfortable with who we are. No question. It's ongoing aspiration however that keeps us from becoming too comfortable and thus stagnating. Healthy aspirations are, HEALTHY.

Big deal. Quit patting yourself on the back in a self-congratulatory mental masterbation for doing absolutely nothing.

Imagine if I did heroin and then wanted congrats for getting myself off. I did it to myself. It makes no sense.

^ you sound ignorant in regards to the topic, but thanks for your two cents.

zee verkawound wrote:

gjm wrote:True, in a childlike manner.

You know what they say, two types of geniuses, children and those who retain, their childish best qualities. The healthy use of aspiration is definitely one of those qualities.

When mentioning 'childlike' I intended the flavor of innocence and not one of negetivity. The healthy use of aspiration IMO has nothing to do with genius and everything to do with selfishness. By far the majority of aspiring to be like someone beyond the first stage of innocence has to do with self centeredness and the attraction of either fame or fortune. When questioning a person hard enough about why they aspire to be like someone you will almost always hear that its about what that person does or has and not who they fundamentally are, warts and all. Superficial hero's are the center of most kids aspiration.

zee verkawound wrote:

gjm wrote:No its not. Its a natural part of trying on what is modeled to you and then deciding if it fits you. Its the process of becoming an 'individual,' not survival.

I can play this game. "yes it is" Horse poop. Human beings are "pack" animals to begin with. We are born individuals. We go to bed individuals and wake up individuals. Aspiring to become a BETTER individual via others more so wise, skilled and learned than ourselves is what makes us survival prone.

Treat it as a discussion and not a game, you will get more from it than a sense of winning or loosing. Again, aspiring to become a better individual is not about becoming survival prone, but about hedonism. The pursuit of pleasure via the quest for power, fortune or fame often puts people in a position of having their lives snuffed out, not extended. The pleasure of the moment and its rewards are pitted against the risk of survival. The masses watch and take sides often leading to secret or public aspiration to be like their hero. This mentality drives decent portions of economies.

zee verkawound wrote:

gjm wrote:No. First we aspire to be like those who we have our first sense of trust with. Then when we see their flaws we aspire to be like those who get the kind of results in their lives that we want. Then, for those who examine themselves enough and who come to the conclusion that one size does not fit all, we aspire to certain traits that suit our goals/desires/makeup/values.

So you do admit that everyone aspires to be like someone within the course of their lives. G, that was more or less my point to begin with.

I see your point. I am taking it further by suggesting that its not about aspiring to be like someone but about aspiring to have what someone has, whether it is a public image or personal property. When you move into that third level though, the aspiration becomes very selective, traits oriented. I personally aspire to improve myself in many ways and own more of some things and less of others. I do not however aspire to be like anybody in particular. I know enough about the skeletons in my own closet to not be willing to aspire to someone else's. I'm pretty picky these days.

zee verkawound wrote:

gjm wrote:Disagree, you are the most healthiest when you can find a home in your own skin and continue to refine yourself as a unique individual. This has nothing to do with aspiring to be like someone yet everything to do with discovering what you can become.

... again, you need to figure out what "aspire" actually means. You are confusing the act of aspiration with conformity. To aspire to be better via examples of other individuals we observe is as natural as breathing good clean air and feeling better for it. Of course we are our best when we are comfortable with who we are. No question. It's ongoing aspiration however that keeps us from becoming too comfortable and thus stagnating. Healthy aspirations are, HEALTHY.

I don't believe that I am confused at all. Conformity does not enter my picture at all. You have changed the direction of your initial comments here from aspiring to be like someone to aspiring to be better individuals via the example of others. This is exactly the point I was trying to press. Its the battle I have with my teenaged sons. Helping them to see that one persons selective accomplishments does not necessarily make them worthy of total aspiration. Aspiring to improve your position in life wether physical, mental etc is the natural part IMO of the human make up. To get to the place where you are centered on yourself and the improvement thereof is the best place to be, a step beyond aspiring to be like someone else.