Yo, sorry folks... I didn't get past the posting arguments into the meat of the thread the 1st time through. my bad.AdamJay wrote:did you read this entire thread?
sound quality: live vs. logic
Re: bummer
The world is sound.
Re: bummer
I'm glad you came to you're sensesneuronaut wrote:Yo, sorry folks... I didn't get past the posting arguments into the meat of the thread the 1st time through. my bad.
I was going to have to write you off as a jackass, even though I checked out your site and it's INCREDIBLY COOL--very impressive stuff.
My brain was really conflicted there for a moment...
MBP C2D 2.33GHz---Metric Halo MIO 2882
Re: bummer
LOL!buzzcock wrote:I'm glad you came to you're sensesneuronaut wrote:Yo, sorry folks... I didn't get past the posting arguments into the meat of the thread the 1st time through. my bad.
I was going to have to write you off as a jackass, even though I checked out your site and it's INCREDIBLY COOL--very impressive stuff.
My brain was really conflicted there for a moment...
Can you tell this guy is from Brooklyn or what? Freaking hilarious!
-r
Master of the Interweb
Ok, so I tried running some spectrum analyzers on our test material since I told AdamJay I didn't think they were accurate. Here are my results:
http://www.surveillance.net/test/paz.jpg
http://www.surveillance.net/test/span.jpg
-r
http://www.surveillance.net/test/paz.jpg
http://www.surveillance.net/test/span.jpg
-r
Master of the Interweb
my thoughts exactly. wow. imagine that. and a summing buss test at that.AdamJay wrote:damn, thats close!
i'd venture to say "identical"?
peace,
rahlo
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.rahlo.com
MacBook Pro, Live 8, Reason 4, Akai MPD 32, Akai MPK 49, Akai APC 40, Metric Halo ULN-2 expanded, Apogee Duet.
rahlo
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.rahlo.com
MacBook Pro, Live 8, Reason 4, Akai MPD 32, Akai MPK 49, Akai APC 40, Metric Halo ULN-2 expanded, Apogee Duet.
Could some one with more experience break down the graphical analysis between these two sets of graphs?
I will be honest, I much prefer working in Live but sometimes things seem to sound better in Logic. I can't tell if it's some psychological influence of running a more expensive, dual processor, mac optimized, fancy-ass, high-resolution graphic, DAW, or even if it's exaggeterated by the feeling of relief I feel I get after finally getting something accomplished in a manner I find significantly less intuitive and abstract. I mean, catching a ball is one thing, but juggling?-that's real fun! I would really like to see some more technical data to compare these two. It would personally help me to form an objective decision on whether or not to pawn off Logic for some bad-ass plug-ins, if and when Live becomes more optimized for the mac. As it is, I juggle much better in Live than Logic. I guess the question is... does the extra $500 dollars plus turn my balls into flaming torches? To be continued...
I will be honest, I much prefer working in Live but sometimes things seem to sound better in Logic. I can't tell if it's some psychological influence of running a more expensive, dual processor, mac optimized, fancy-ass, high-resolution graphic, DAW, or even if it's exaggeterated by the feeling of relief I feel I get after finally getting something accomplished in a manner I find significantly less intuitive and abstract. I mean, catching a ball is one thing, but juggling?-that's real fun! I would really like to see some more technical data to compare these two. It would personally help me to form an objective decision on whether or not to pawn off Logic for some bad-ass plug-ins, if and when Live becomes more optimized for the mac. As it is, I juggle much better in Live than Logic. I guess the question is... does the extra $500 dollars plus turn my balls into flaming torches? To be continued...
LOFA,
keep in mind that this test doesn't deal with Live's warp engine.
Warping a bassline and stretching it an extra 10bpm without "re-pitch" can certainly make Live sound not so great. But simple midi sequencing, and playing back audio files non-warped. Live is as good as Logic, or should i say that the other way around?
I do think there is a psychological effect in using Live and thinking it would be too good to be true if its mix engine was as good as Logic and other DAWs. But keep in mind that pricepoints don't mean quality, they simply mean features. Logic Pro $999 and you get everything including the kitchen sink. And $20 more gives you PDC lol. What you don't get is Session view and an as excellent workflow.
Live for $399 (or $499 in the online store) gives you a kick ass workflow, an average set of 1st party effects. No PDC, not as good Mac performance, a less customizable interface, and less extensive midi editing. It isn't a less capable mix engine that makes Live more affordable. Its the fact that it has a different feature set and has always catered to Live performing. The fact that we can write entire tracks and albums in it is just a bonus.
keep in mind that this test doesn't deal with Live's warp engine.
Warping a bassline and stretching it an extra 10bpm without "re-pitch" can certainly make Live sound not so great. But simple midi sequencing, and playing back audio files non-warped. Live is as good as Logic, or should i say that the other way around?
I do think there is a psychological effect in using Live and thinking it would be too good to be true if its mix engine was as good as Logic and other DAWs. But keep in mind that pricepoints don't mean quality, they simply mean features. Logic Pro $999 and you get everything including the kitchen sink. And $20 more gives you PDC lol. What you don't get is Session view and an as excellent workflow.
Live for $399 (or $499 in the online store) gives you a kick ass workflow, an average set of 1st party effects. No PDC, not as good Mac performance, a less customizable interface, and less extensive midi editing. It isn't a less capable mix engine that makes Live more affordable. Its the fact that it has a different feature set and has always catered to Live performing. The fact that we can write entire tracks and albums in it is just a bonus.
Thank you for the breakdown AdamJay.
Just out of curiosity, when you say PDC costs an extra $20 dollars you are refering to a 3rd party plug-in right? If so, which one do you prefer? I remember you or some else mentioning one recently, but I didn't think I would need it... I find it strange that Logic Pro doesn't have that included already!
One day I will be comfortable enough with both of their midi interfaces to compare them. As it is, I am still very much a newbie with Logic and I still find their drum machine tedious. I find impulse to still be quite limited, but at least I have a steady workflow with it.
Just out of curiosity, when you say PDC costs an extra $20 dollars you are refering to a 3rd party plug-in right? If so, which one do you prefer? I remember you or some else mentioning one recently, but I didn't think I would need it... I find it strange that Logic Pro doesn't have that included already!
One day I will be comfortable enough with both of their midi interfaces to compare them. As it is, I am still very much a newbie with Logic and I still find their drum machine tedious. I find impulse to still be quite limited, but at least I have a steady workflow with it.
Interesting.....Determining the quality of a sound by how it looks.
I didn't read the whole thread....but if you don't like the way that something sounds then change the way that it sounds.
We have so many great tools at our disposal that if you cannot make it sound how you want (i.e. quality) then it is your fault.
If it makes you feel better to think that Live has worse sound quality than Logic, then good for you, your music will never improve.
But....if you listen to AdamJay and take matters into your own hands (or ears), then you will improve at your task, and your music will sound better.
Personally, I moved to Logic, because I can work faster, and it gives me more CPU head room (performence of the prog. and the freeze function), ergo it is easier for ME to realize my sonic ideas.
Oh and I use Logic Express 7.....cheaper than Live....Still use Live for live though (more stable).
I didn't read the whole thread....but if you don't like the way that something sounds then change the way that it sounds.
We have so many great tools at our disposal that if you cannot make it sound how you want (i.e. quality) then it is your fault.
If it makes you feel better to think that Live has worse sound quality than Logic, then good for you, your music will never improve.
But....if you listen to AdamJay and take matters into your own hands (or ears), then you will improve at your task, and your music will sound better.
Personally, I moved to Logic, because I can work faster, and it gives me more CPU head room (performence of the prog. and the freeze function), ergo it is easier for ME to realize my sonic ideas.
Oh and I use Logic Express 7.....cheaper than Live....Still use Live for live though (more stable).
LOFA, actually that was a joke referring to the new Logic 7.1 upgrade ($19.99) that adds "Full" PDC To Logic Pro and Express. before you could not get PDC in the busses, but rather only on some channels.LOFA wrote:Thank you for the breakdown AdamJay.
Just out of curiosity, when you say PDC costs an extra $20 dollars you are refering to a 3rd party plug-in right? If so, which one do you prefer? I remember you or some else mentioning one recently, but I didn't think I would need it... I find it strange that Logic Pro doesn't have that included already!
but for Live - i recommend Expert Sleepers Buffer Delay (OSX), its free too. http://www.collective.co.uk/expertsleep ... delay.html
Just buss all of your channels (tracks) that aren't getting added latency from plugins, and throw the Buffer Delay in that bus, add some latency with Buffer Delay to make those channels (tracks) sync up with your plugin-induced-delayed channels (tracks).
Full PDC in Live would be damn nice though. I find myself using CompressorII rather than my Waves Compressors just so i wont have to deal with the latency.
Edit: Hey, I'm the village idiot, I bought logic 7- I mean I jumped the gun on good 'ol Hithero... feel free to read my uncut tirade, but except my apologies in advance. Darn energy drinks and the proceeding logorrhea...
First off, thanks AdamJay, second, rather than start the week badly, Hitherto:
Key words: " I didn't read the whole thread"
First question: " Did you even read the complete paragraph I wrote?"
Comment: " I am not asking the righteous Live guru to decide for me
which DAW to use. I'm trying to utilize my silly Psych 101
knowledge to transcend a paradigm and potentially identify
a very real parameter.
I made a comment pertaining to the limitations of unconsciously, superficially, evalualting a product, and the first thing you do is skim my post and accuse me of believing the opposite of my point! More irony than
an MFA thesis show..
Perhaps I was too subtle, and you missed my point completely. I agree with your take on your own interpretation of what I was trying to convey. I eat shit and breathe ableton. The question for me is not which one, it's do I even need Logic for non-live production. I think we are on the same page. I hope this doesn't mean your music will never improve...
First off, thanks AdamJay, second, rather than start the week badly, Hitherto:
Key words: " I didn't read the whole thread"
First question: " Did you even read the complete paragraph I wrote?"
Comment: " I am not asking the righteous Live guru to decide for me
which DAW to use. I'm trying to utilize my silly Psych 101
knowledge to transcend a paradigm and potentially identify
a very real parameter.
I made a comment pertaining to the limitations of unconsciously, superficially, evalualting a product, and the first thing you do is skim my post and accuse me of believing the opposite of my point! More irony than
an MFA thesis show..
Perhaps I was too subtle, and you missed my point completely. I agree with your take on your own interpretation of what I was trying to convey. I eat shit and breathe ableton. The question for me is not which one, it's do I even need Logic for non-live production. I think we are on the same page. I hope this doesn't mean your music will never improve...
Last edited by LOFA on Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
LOFA,
PBS has an excellent series called "Frontline", and thanks to Sqook i discovered they archive many of their episode/documentaries online now. They can be watched with Windows Media Player (even on mac hehe)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/view/
the reason i'm telling you this, is there is one particular episode that i think you would enjoy concerning the whole superficial consumerism paradigm. The name of the episode is "The Persuaders" from 2004. Its about marketing. Watch this, and keep in mind how Logic Pro is marketed (and owned by Apple), and also keep in mind how Live is marketed.
There will be a quiz on Thursday
PBS has an excellent series called "Frontline", and thanks to Sqook i discovered they archive many of their episode/documentaries online now. They can be watched with Windows Media Player (even on mac hehe)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/view/
the reason i'm telling you this, is there is one particular episode that i think you would enjoy concerning the whole superficial consumerism paradigm. The name of the episode is "The Persuaders" from 2004. Its about marketing. Watch this, and keep in mind how Logic Pro is marketed (and owned by Apple), and also keep in mind how Live is marketed.
There will be a quiz on Thursday
