ot..... VOTE Republican in November. Protect America

[knotkranky]

AND IF terrorism was the real issue.... it's still kind of fucked up to say

we are fighting the war on terror over there to keep this country safe...

while raping their women, killing their children, hundreds of thousands of casualties..... and telling them they are liberated....

sorry, that's just fucked up...

+1 again. Love the new sig.

[volum]

Robtronik is very wrong indeed.

But with our political waters so muddy, I understand why so many people believe so many different ways. Fortunately for us, the world isn't as black and white as many choose to see. But within the endless gradations between, is where life exists.

It all starts in Palestine.

There is nothing that will ever be "fixed" until an equal solution decends upon Israel and Palestine. Until that time, expect unending violence coming from many parts of this planet.

South East Asia, the Middle East, Continental Europe, and if we don't watch it, South America and Latin America will start boiling over.

It all starts in Palestine.

[M. Bréqs]

It all starts in Palestine.

There is nothing that will ever be "fixed" until an equal solution decends upon Israel and Palestine. Until that time, expect unending violence coming from many parts of this planet.

South East Asia, the Middle East, Continental Europe, and if we don't watch it, South America and Latin America will start boiling over.

It all starts in Palestine.

Simplistic causality - it's a common analytical error. I guarantee you that if not for Israel and Palestine, the disenfranchised / fundamentalist (depends who you ask) would still want to kill us - they would just fish up one of their other stock excuses, be it Western Troops on the Arabian Peninsula, Religion, the Crusades, our slutty women encouraging their women to be immoral, etc.

You're being duped into believing a simplistic pretext for a war the jihadists genuinely want, my friend.

[the last one]

Simplistic causality - it's a common analytical error. I guarantee you that if not for Israel and Palestine, the disenfranchised / fundamentalist (depends who you ask) would still want to kill us.

They don't want to kill a few thousand of us any more than we want to kill a few hundred thousand of them. Fortunately our technology is so much better we get a far better hit-ratio per US soldier to Iraqi Civilian.

[robtronik]

It all comes down to money

the US is in the middle east to secure current and future oil control,
which will preserve the value of the US dollar a little longer..

sorry, terrorism is not the real issue

Yup

Ideology is the issue. Money and its effects is/are a by-product of the ideology being fronted by both sides.

rob.

[robtronik]

Robtronik is very wrong indeed.

But with our political waters so muddy, I understand why so many people believe so many different ways. Fortunately for us, the world isn't as black and white as many choose to see. But within the endless gradations between, is where life exists.

It all starts in Palestine.

There is nothing that will ever be "fixed" until an equal solution decends upon Israel and Palestine. Until that time, expect unending violence coming from many parts of this planet.

South East Asia, the Middle East, Continental Europe, and if we don't watch it, South America and Latin America will start boiling over.

It all starts in Palestine.

Palestine is a red-herring. Ask yourselves how many of the arab states extended their helping hand and land to the palestinians to help them create their own state beyond supplying them with weapons and money to attack Isreal by proxy.

Its a sham and an excuse by those radicalized enough to blow themselves up for their "cause".

Secondly, the despotic governments need a scapegoat like Isreal and the U.S. to deflect the poor government systems they uphold in their country as well.

Why do you think the forces against democracy are fighting against giving their people a say in how they would rule themselves? Its because they want more of the same: Fascist, Taliban, Sharia law nonsense. And what is increasingly driving them towards this goal is their idea of Islamism.

It is this ideology that we need to stamp out by changing the government systems to be more democratic. Enfranchisment of the people is the way to go. Its the ONLY way, in fact, to check the fascist tendencies of radicalized sharia movements who would love nothing more than to rule without consequence over its subjects.

rob.

[volum]

Simplistic causality - it's a common analytical error....You're being duped into believing a simplistic pretext for a war the jihadists genuinely want, my friend.

My brother, a US contractor, was just airlifted out of Afghanistan (Jalalabad) last week, black-hawk style, they had to save them as the local militias, backed by the police were coming to kill them all.

Why were they going to be murdered?

Very simple reason, "M.Breqs". It wasn't about "our freedoms", or the ways we treat our women, or the clothing we wear.

KBR, the bigwig contractor, decided to stop paying the guards and Afghani workers he was foreman of, about five months ago. The workers and police don't like American imperialists using their people as slave labor. (kinda reminded them of that whole 1980's thing with the Soviets and the Taliban... remember what happened then?)


The "jihadists" you speak of are an incredibly small group of people. They do not represent the feelings of the vast majority of their people. They represent the farthest extreme of their common hatred.

You are the one being duped, my friend, into thinking things are so black and white. Using terms like "jihadists" and "islamic extremists" is the litmus test of the ignorant.


"Occams Axe" crashes right through too many of the rhetorical sound-bite driven pseudo-debates here. Idiology is being pushed on both sides, and one saying the other wrong is missing the point entirely.

[volum]

btw: UK isn't let off the hook on this one.

There are FOUR big oil companies cashing in on Iraq's oil fields. Two of which are UK firms, two are US.

BP got it's start during the churchill years, by doing what? By stealing Iraq's oil (then mesopotamia).

Funny, if you check for "Gertrude Bell" in Wiki, you'll find a lovely story of how the UK actually started this entire ball rolling in the late 1910's. Using oppresive force and chemical weapons, the invading UK army annihilated the citizens and setup shop in their oilfields.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Bell

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/n ... 354269.stm


This has ALWAYS been about UK&US dominance. Our cycles are repeated about once every generation, but the story is identical every time.

When we will learn from any of history, you got me on that one. But rest assured that until we do, nothing will ever change.

[M. Bréqs]

Simplistic causality - it's a common analytical error....You're being duped into believing a simplistic pretext for a war the jihadists genuinely want, my friend.

My brother, a US contractor, was just airlifted out of Afghanistan (Jalalabad) last week, black-hawk style, they had to save them as the local militias, backed by the police were coming to kill them all.

Why were they going to be murdered?

Very simple reason, "M.Breqs". It wasn't about "our freedoms", or the ways we treat our women, or the clothing we wear.

KBR, the bigwig contractor, decided to stop paying the guards and Afghani workers he was foreman of, about five months ago. The workers and police don't like American imperialists using their people as slave labor. (kinda reminded them of that whole 1980's thing with the Soviets and the Taliban... remember what happened then?)


The "jihadists" you speak of are an incredibly small group of people. They do not represent the feelings of the vast majority of their people. They represent the farthest extreme of their common hatred.

You are the one being duped, my friend, into thinking things are so black and white. Using terms like "jihadists" and "islamic extremists" is the litmus test of the ignorant.


"Occams Axe" crashes right through too many of the rhetorical sound-bite driven pseudo-debates here. Idiology is being pushed on both sides, and one saying the other wrong is missing the point entirely.

Ok then - you prove your earlier post wrong - it's not all about Palestine then, IS IT?!?! In this case it's about exploitative labour. In no post do I ever condone exploitative labour. Your brother's company are idiots. Most workers in any country would do the same thing if you didn't pay them for months, thus your example is not indicative of the global conflict between Jihadists and the West.

My point was that to claim that Israel / Palestine is the cause of violence, is fallicious. You have failed to refute my point.

Ideology (or idiology as you seem to spell it) is exactly the issue - there are a lot of violent people who want to impose sharia on you and me, and they are willing to kill to do so. Using Occam's Razor (or axe as you seem to think it is), one would find that if a large number of global jihadists say that they want to impose islam on the planet, then it's probably true; It's certainly more likely than the hypothesis that they're mad because their underwear is too tight or a piece of choice real estate is owned by somebody else.

[glu]

Ideology is the issue. Money and its effects is/are a by-product of the ideology being fronted by both sides.

rob.

Money is the issue my man.

The ideologies are there to try to justify the atrocities that both sides are committing over this pursuit, so the ideologies are the by-products for

MISSION:MONEY

[glu]

+1 again. Love the new sig.

THANKS!
Im lovin it too

[volum]

Ok then - you prove your earlier post wrong - it's not all about Palestine then, IS IT?!?!

Yes it is. We have the same position with most of the "brown" countries. The actions we take in Palestine are a direct correlation to those we have in other countries too. And about %99 of the time, from the same DOD, the same contractors, the same key figures (Kissinger, Rumsfeld etc) and produces the same reaction. It is part and parcel.

thus your example is not indicative of the global conflict between Jihadists and the West.

It most certainly is.

We pretend to help someone, then when they learn we're only there to help ourselves, (such as in Afghanistan in the 80s, which started the taliban and led to the creation of Al Qaeda) they revolt. Same happened during desert storm. We tell them "stand up against saddam and we'll help you!".. then we left. Saddam ended up gassing thousands of people after that. Do you think we made any friends that day?

Did you forget about these times?

Using Occam's Razor (or axe as you seem to think it is), one would find that if a large number of global jihadists say that they want to impose islam on the planet, then it's probably true;

I use the term "Axe" to represent the bloody and hard reality of the easy to obtain facts. Yes, I understand it's "razor", and I'm sorry for taking creative license in coloring my meanings. I'll try not to confuse next time.


btw: KBR is not my brother's company. Kellog Brown and Root is a subsidiary of Halliburton. Are you trying to tell me that Halliburton/KBR/BP/Shell/Cheney/Bush aren't all after the same thing?


If you'd like to listen to most of the "jihadis" recordings and admissions, you'll find the Palestinian situation spouted in a consistent manner, directly relating to attacks that their organizations have carried out.

[jb61264]

it's about being moral or immoral.
starting wars and torturing people in secret torture camps is not the moral thing to do, so i am against that because it is not a good contribution to humanity

agreed, but when terrorist regimes are involved, all bets are off...people think they can hijack planes and blow up the World Trade Center and do nothing but create a culture of terrorism then it needs to be dealt with. i'm not for war, but when your hand is forced (and I believe terrorism forces your hand) war happens...unfortunately.

who decides who's a terrorist?

and who's accountable when we grab the wrong guy and take em out for a few months of waterboarding (and i don't mean any activity that you might do on vacation with a boat).

its a slippery slope my man. and we're already slipped down halfway....
.lm.

i think it's quite easy to identify who a terrorist is...its not like the US is acting on its own accord and saying "thou art a terrorist"...the activity of identifying/eliminating terrorists is an allied effort that involves many different countries around the world...the US just always has the headline because we're the only ones with the balls to take the lead on it.

who are you suggesting that we 'grabbed' incorrectly?

[volum]

btw: I am not denying the fact that there are small slivers of people who just hate. We have one of them running our country right now. And there's others who have attacked us before, and probably will again.

There will always be these types of splintered factions. But they are not representative of the traditional jihadist movement against the US and its interests.

To quote Osama:

"The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'."


When two sides are at eachothers throats, one side needs to stop. You cannot kill for peace.

It's unfortunate that the waters are so muddied by lies and corruption that even we that yearn for specific knowledge end up slamming our heads against walls, follow dead ends, and have the 24/7 news rhetoric further confusing things. This is how people like Alex Jones end up convincing so many people of disrespectful, misleading and outrageous claims.

I think more self-professed liberals and progressives have seen "Loose Change" than have read the 9/11 commission report.

Sad.

[D K]

A liberal vote is a vote to let the guard down and allow the terrorists in.
Without strong Republican leadership combatting terrorist cells in our midst and overseas, the threat will succeed. We've succeeded in building up our defenses, let's not vote them away.

I'm voting Republican to protect our homeland security AND the moral fabric of our society.

Liberalism might be the popular fad of easygoing laissez-faire, but it takes guts and focus to protect the nation.

go eat a dick.