How to disable Mr. Ugly Warp completely??

dj superflat · Post by **dj superflat** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:02 am

i love people trusting their "ears" over scientific tests (yes, yes, the files cancel but i still sense a difference on the astral plane). placebos anyone?

any engineer knows how often this happens, e.g., people convinced things are changing sound when you haven't even plugged in the effect yet or somesuch.

Joelb · Post by **Joelb** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:14 am

Do you honestly think if I posted some audio with warped and non warped tracks at the same unaltered tempo you'd be able to tell me the difference?

I'd like to see that.

Ignoring phase cancellation rules is pretty silly dontchathink?

rikhyray · Post by **rikhyray** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:11 pm

dj superflat wrote: I love people trusting their "ears" over scientific tests (yes, yes, the files cancel but i still sense a difference on the astral plane). placebos anyone?

any engineer knows how often this happens, e.g., people convinced things are changing sound when you haven't even plugged in the effect yet or some such.

Scientific research ? Oxford or Stanford moved to New Jersey, professors using the language of a truck driver ?
Software like Ableton is complex , the factors go ad infinitum. A real scientist, real research would investigate more, the fact of the cancellation does not necessarily translates simply or by multiplication into anything else then this particular case.
Real research could be done only by Ableton since only they know what "happens" behind and for obvious reasons cannot disclose too much.
That is why practical experience of a musician, carry for me more value, and for such information, and exchange I read and participate in discussions here. I wouldn't rely on hearing of a truck driver or waiter who plays with Live in his free time, or some DJ or rocker with hearing damaged through overexposure to loud sources. It is the input of musicians and producer here that makes me participate.
That applies to everything, new gear etc. I find this forum more valuable then SOS ( if I was engineer it would be opposite) . Regarding hearing, the focus is different, I know engineers who can recognize reverbs, compressors, mics, cables etc, etc used
while musicians, producers focus on other factors that the engineers wont hear at all.
I can hardly imagine any use of "scientific" experiments done by some proletarian, without elementary education unable to even express himself in civilized manner.

I am classical musician originally, means my ears were trained (for 12 years) to be able to discriminate the pitch, tonal quality etc, way as any painter will see more colours then I do. I am not a genius, it is just training and practice, just like in anything else even sports.. Our classical music is based on octave divided in 22 parts and tonal variations, not only pitch play important role in musical practice, then hearing subtle nuances becomes second nature.
This warp case is very simple for me, I hear the difference and it is rather obvious one, and since it can work in this project I switch warp of. Thank to this thread, I paid a bit extra attention to this aspect while working on something new.
BTW. I used to work as studio musician and admit using the trick "is it better now" numerous times, changing arrangements of an ignorant producer without him noticing , old school studio tricks

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:34 pm

ableton has told us since day one that warp does not change the sound when at orig tempo.

I am a musician too, i just don't need to tell everyone how much better i am am than them. I've been writing and performing electronic music for the past 12 years and played "regular" music of many varieties since i was a child. I have taught audio engineering and electronic music at SAE in NYC and to private students.

As far as me cursing like a truck driver, yeah, go fuck yourself. You're an asshole.

.lm.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:58 pm

Nobody has time to reslove this discussion with a few audio examples.
But everybody has told their life story...

"A witty reply proves nothing" - Voltaire

So somebody either post proof or a witty reply. Cause the current back and forth isn't that entertaining.
Proving nothing is still proof

I don't have those expert ears nor an unrelenting confidence in any type of audio application.
If you guys honestly are that good. Back it up with something that N00bs like me can double-check.
I love finding/confirming bugs. Instead of paying for the Live 8 upgrade, i'll send Ableton a bill for a couple of thousands euros. + some commision on the operators they sold

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:10 pm

well, the thing is, anybody can try my phase invert test in about 5 minutes.

It's simple to do, and it's accurate.
You don't need a degree from oxford to understand it.

.lm.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:28 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:well, the thing is, anybody can try my phase invert test in about 5 minutes.

It's simple to do, and it's accurate.
You don't need a degree from oxford to understand it.

.lm.

We know those results.
Its the most basic test we can do.

But not performing this test doesn't warrant a life story. So for those who oppose the result of this test, show some other results..

I'm not trying to fuel the fire. Just checking where the sparks are coming from.

A simple debate has turned into an equivalent of "mine is bigger then yours"...

laurence · Post by **laurence** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:12 pm

my mummy said warpings good for you...

Cryptic UK · Post by **Cryptic UK** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:16 pm

hoffman2k wrote: show some other results..

Liverpool 0-1 Man Utd

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:00 pm

hoffman2k wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote:well, the thing is, anybody can try my phase invert test in about 5 minutes.

It's simple to do, and it's accurate.
You don't need a degree from oxford to understand it.

.lm.
We know those results.
Its the most basic test we can do.

But not performing this test doesn't warrant a life story. So for those who oppose the result of this test, show some other results..

I'm not trying to fuel the fire. Just checking where the sparks are coming from.

A simple debate has turned into an equivalent of "mine is bigger then yours"...

Well, not from me, from me it has become "FU idiot."

There's a lot of things that we can debate about live, there is a lot of depth to the program. However, for something simple like this, it's not that hard to test it out. I'm really amazed that people are just refusing to acknowledge the simple truth.

.lm.

NorthernMonkey · Post by **NorthernMonkey** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:07 pm

Cryptic UK wrote:
hoffman2k wrote: show some other results..
Liverpool 0-1 Man Utd

Now that's a result

Synthbuilder · Post by **Synthbuilder** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:37 pm

Gentlemen I am about to throw a large spanner in the works. And unfortunately, this is not good news to those who say that Live's warp engine has no effect.

I have discovered a very odd set of behaviour in Live working with two identical stereo wavs in two tracks in the arrange window.

I pasted two whole songs of mine into each track. I inverted one and played them both back. Silence.

I turned warp on in one track using beat mode. Silence. Ah, just what we wanted, but I carried on...

I set warp to complex. Not silence but an odd phasing effect.

I set warp back to beats. Silence again.

Back to complex and the wacky phasing effect.

Then back to beats. Silence.

Then to complex. Silence. Hang on - what's with that??? I thought complex gave me the phasey noise.

Turned back to beats mode. No null and the track can be heard again. Uh-oh, this should give me phase cancellation.

This time I repeated my actions but for each stage I stopped the track before changing the warp. The actual weird behaviour is not repeatable - but some sort of weird behaviour is possible when switching between warps and switching warp on and off.

As I write this, I am listening to my song with both tracks with the warp engine off and still hearing the music. ie, there is no absolute null. Even with warp off in both tracks.

Something fishy here for sure.

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:15 pm

So either something magically happened. Or you clicked on something wrong without noticing it.

The "magical" thing could just be the wrongly displayed warp mode. For example, you choose beats but get complex.
And it cant be reproduced.. So it would only happen enough to freak some small group people out.

Sounds like a plausible scenario to me.

Still, no video, no audio examples, no method of reproduction,....

If you concluded that something is fishy, you must be able to find a method to repoduce the problem. After all, you found it out when doing a test.

I tried your thing about turning warp on/off. I cant reproduce anything weird in the latest beta.

Synthbuilder · Post by **Synthbuilder** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:37 pm

Well I just tried it again with another wav file and I get the same odd behaviour. I've got 6.05 on Win XP SP2.

In fact, you can get it to misbehave on my system by pressing Hi-Q button a few times.

Is this a fault of the warp engine, or a problem with delay compensation? Who knows, but maybe it sheds some light on why people are hearing a difference. After all if we're all telling them to put a clip into beats mode, and its actually in complex, then its no wonder they can hear something.

I can't give you video proof. But I have found that I can save the naughty song, shut down live, open it again, and reload the song. And the problem is just there as you left it. In other words, rebooting Live doesn't cure the fault, so the unusual settings are stored in the live set.

Synthbuilder · Post by **Synthbuilder** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:48 pm

No video, but have a look at this image

This shows the two tracks with identical audio. One is inverted and warped with beats mode on. Now take a look at the output metering. It not nulling at all, and what you are hearing is basically treble part of the track.