[OT] I've arrived in Afghanistan

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M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:54 pm

Sales Dude McBoob wrote: I didn't claim you shared Rummy's view on troop count. There is a quality of your tone that reminds me of the US administration's penchant for feverish denial and destructive hubris.

So, for you, this is about the Taliban, and the Taliban only? Were the Taliban not already routed? They have returned, so they must simply be routed once again?
Well, tone in email and forums is often misinterpreted. I don't intend any tone in my posts at all really - certainly not a feverish one.

You asked if this was about the Taliban and the Taliban only... It's not just the Taliban; only one of the many threats facing the West is from jihadists (wahabism). However, Canada shouldn't "bite off more than we can chew". Our foreign / defence policy is to concentrate our effort in one theatre of operations in an economy of effort. We could send 500 troops to 6 different theatres, but it's logistically and operationally more sound to send 3000 to one theatre of operations and try to make a difference there. So, no it's not just about the Taliban, but the Taliban is about the most that Canada can handle at the moment. Hizbullah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, PIJ, Abu-Sayaff Group, the Iranian government, there's no shortage of groups hostile to Western Civilization, and that's just counting the Jihadists... I won't even get into North Korea, world communists, or other threats.

The Taliban was routed? No, they were displaced to Pakistan. Now they're back in Southern Afghanistan. We haven't routed the Taliban yet, that's still to come my friend.

[EDIT]: Perhaps routed was a poor choice of words, since it implies "displacement" anyways. perhaps I should have said "decimated" instead...

ethios4
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Post by ethios4 » Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:49 pm

Here's where I get concerned...
Novel wrote:...it would be really cool if you could overcome your willingness to kill other people because they see things differently than you do. If you would really like to help people and make the world a better place, there are a lot of great ways that you can do this that do not involve physically harming others.
What about the people have no problem killing people because they see things differently? If one side of a conflict decides it is no longer willing to engage in violence, the other side simply has to go to the other extreme and completely annihilate the pacifist. If someone breaks into your home and is raping your wife, are you going to sit there and let it happen because you don't want to resort to violence? Does pacifism apply to every situation? If not, then why, and in what situations does it fail?

I'm not asking rhetorical questions....this is something I've been thinking about alot lately. Gandhi's advice for the jews during the holocaust was to simply let Hitler destroy them. As much as I would like to believe pacifism would work, I'm not at all convinced that we wouldn't be living in the third reich now if the free world had listened to Gandhi.....pacifism's primary tenet is that you can stir the collective conscience through undeserved suffering....what if your oppressor has a heart of stone?

On the other hand, it seems that fully implementing the concept of Absolute War (a fascinating concept...thanks for bringing that up) would itself lead to annihilation....."an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" (Gandhi) The world is not black and white, and does not operate on the strictly logical way of thinking upon which the concept of Absolute War rests. There is strength in diversity.

I imagine the resolution lies in the middle ground between pacifism and total force, but proponents of either would argue against such a compromise....

Novel
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Post by Novel » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:35 pm

The only thing that you can do as an individual to end the cycle of violence is to choose to not participate in perpetuating the cycle of violence and encourage others to do the same. Celebrate those who help others through non-violent means. Place a higher value on compassion.

We are all being continuously programmed by a power structure that serves the egos and material interests of the have-lots by subjugating the have-lesses and have-nots, ideally without the latter realizing that they are in fact under extreme means of psychological control. Virtually everything is a form of propaganda that serves these ends. We have all become convinced that violence is an inevitable part of human society, therefore we see it as such. We are convinced that violence often equates with strength and courage, and for many of us, it is an essential aspect of our self-identities. Through this complete and total programming, we then become capable of almost any moral travesty in the name of our leaders ('ideals') because our focus is shifted from understanding the cause and effect of our violent actions within the big picture. Aggression leads to fear, and fear leads to aggression - forever.

The core falsehood, the belief that violence is an inherent and inevitable part of humanity, is the product of eons of social 'evolution', but the main thing to remember is that the future of humanity or any situation involving humans interacting absolutely does NOT need to be defined by the habitual responses of the past or the learned manner of perceiving reality. The past can be thousands of years, or five minutes ago, and everyone is challenged by reacting to their programming.

The only way for the cycle to end is to forgive those who trespass against you and help others. It is the only effective path to long-term change, as opposed to short-term pacification.

You are the only one who can make that choice for yourself, in every moment, in your real life, not in some kind of hypothetical situation. bbl gtg

M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:33 pm

Novel wrote:The only thing that you can do as an individual to end the cycle of violence is to choose to not participate in perpetuating the cycle of violence and encourage others to do the same. Celebrate those who help others through non-violent means. Place a higher value on compassion.

We are all being continuously programmed by a power structure that serves the egos and material interests of the have-lots by subjugating the have-lesses and have-nots, ideally without the latter realizing that they are in fact under extreme means of psychological control. Virtually everything is a form of propaganda that serves these ends. We have all become convinced that violence is an inevitable part of human society, therefore we see it as such. We are convinced that violence often equates with strength and courage, and for many of us, it is an essential aspect of our self-identities. Through this complete and total programming, we then become capable of almost any moral travesty in the name of our leaders ('ideals') because our focus is shifted from understanding the cause and effect of our violent actions within the big picture. Aggression leads to fear, and fear leads to aggression - forever.

The core falsehood, the belief that violence is an inherent and inevitable part of humanity, is the product of eons of social 'evolution', but the main thing to remember is that the future of humanity or any situation involving humans interacting absolutely does NOT need to be defined by the habitual responses of the past or the learned manner of perceiving reality. The past can be thousands of years, or five minutes ago, and everyone is challenged by reacting to their programming.

The only way for the cycle to end is to forgive those who trespass against you and help others. It is the only effective path to long-term change, as opposed to short-term pacification.

You are the only one who can make that choice for yourself, in every moment, in your real life, not in some kind of hypothetical situation. bbl gtg
This is a problem of the chicken and the egg;

To renounce violence, you need to be reasonably certain that your enemies will also renounce violence. The only thing worse than fighting and dying is not fighting and dying.

So who goes first? I can guarantee you it won't be me. And the majority of people on the planet have the same attitude. Don't forget that we're related to the apes; tribalism and violence are human nature, and biological urges are very difficult to resist.

The other problem with pacifism is that it takes only one violent person to disturb the pacifistic balance and push everybody else into violence themselves; In a world of 6 billion people, it's likely (to the point of near-certainty) that SOMEBODY will use violence to get what they want, especially considering that there isn't enough resources on the planet to keep 6 billion people living at a reasonable level of comfort. Even if only one in a million people were capable of violence, that's 6000 people worldwide who would force others to react violently to them... Your odds aren't good...

Could pacifism work in small communities? Perhaps. If there were an island with no outside contact, they could exist in a pacifist state of being. With a population of a few hundred or a thousand people, they could play the odds that nobody would disturb the pacifist status quo. But as soon as a resource gets scarce, (a spell of poor weather perhaps?) somebody is going to break the pact and dominate somebody else to get what they want.

So, if world peace is impossible on the macro scale, and at best unlikely and tenuous on a micro scale, is the ratio of humans to resources the problem?

It seems that since we have no natural predators, our violent nature is the only mechanism humanity has to keep our population in check. Perhaps our violent nature is a macro-biological necessity...

Food for thought, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

steve-o
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Post by steve-o » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:40 pm

D K wrote:man, i can't help it...
you posted this in a public forum.
so i'll reply.
you're excited about making money to hunt down/kill people.
exactly what makes you better than them? or in the right?
this touched a real nerve in me. how sad.
i hope you live to remember it all.
be safe, good luck.
Exactly. The whole premise for the wars in the middle east are vauge, ambiguous, and deceitful.

Be careful and good luck.

ethios4
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Post by ethios4 » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:53 am

M. Bréqs wrote:In a world of 6 billion people, it's likely (to the point of near-certainty) that SOMEBODY will use violence to get what they want, especially considering that there isn't enough resources on the planet to keep 6 billion people living at a reasonable level of comfort. Even if only one in a million people were capable of violence, that's 6000 people worldwide who would force others to react violently to them... Your odds aren't good...
And possibly the odds get worse the more pacifists there are...

Novel
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Post by Novel » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:50 am

M. Bréqs wrote:
This is a problem of the chicken and the egg;

To renounce violence, you need to be reasonably certain that your enemies will also renounce violence. The only thing worse than fighting and dying is not fighting and dying.

So who goes first? I can guarantee you it won't be me. And the majority of people on the planet have the same attitude.
Agreed.
M. Bréqs wrote:
Don't forget that we're related to the apes; tribalism and violence are human nature, and biological urges are very difficult to resist.
Is human society a product of human nature, or is human nature a product of human society? Is your highest calling as an individual member of the species to serve your biological urges?
M. Bréqs wrote:
The other problem with pacifism is that it takes only one violent person to disturb the pacifistic balance and push everybody else into violence themselves; In a world of 6 billion people, it's likely (to the point of near-certainty) that SOMEBODY will use violence to get what they want, especially considering that there isn't enough resources on the planet to keep 6 billion people living at a reasonable level of comfort. Even if only one in a million people were capable of violence, that's 6000 people worldwide who would force others to react violently to them... Your odds aren't good...
Haha, not at all.
M. Bréqs wrote:
Could pacifism work in small communities? Perhaps. If there were an island with no outside contact, they could exist in a pacifist state of being. With a population of a few hundred or a thousand people, they could play the odds that nobody would disturb the pacifist status quo. But as soon as a resource gets scarce, (a spell of poor weather perhaps?) somebody is going to break the pact and dominate somebody else to get what they want.

So, if world peace is impossible on the macro scale, and at best unlikely and tenuous on a micro scale, is the ratio of humans to resources the problem?
Yes, I agree that the demand outpacing the supply of resources is the most inevitable cause of violence. If everyone had plenty of everything, it wouldn't be as tense. When we reach and pass the saturation point, things will become worse, the competition and conflict will become more intense, and a reduction of the world's population on a global scale will come to pass in one manner or another. There are other social problems that lead to violence, but yeah resource struggle is pretty tough to get around.
M. Bréqs wrote:
It seems that since we have no natural predators, our violent nature is the only mechanism humanity has to keep our population in check. Perhaps our violent nature is a macro-biological necessity...
Good point... there are other potential solutions, but I suppose that our world leaders aren't competent enough to realize them. Or maybe they are... (ominous organ music)

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:27 pm

M. Bréqs wrote:So who goes first? I can guarantee you it won't be me. And the majority of people on the planet have the same attitude. Don't forget that we're related to the apes; tribalism and violence are human nature, and biological urges are very difficult to resist.
We are most closely related to the Bonobo Chimpanzee. Funny thing about the Bonobo is it's a very docile chimp, over sexed but docile.

M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:46 pm

Novel wrote: Good point... there are other potential solutions, but I suppose that our world leaders aren't competent enough to realize them. Or maybe they are... (ominous organ music)
A Malthusian conspiracy perhaps?

nowtime
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Post by nowtime » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:46 pm

Machinesworking wrote:we are most closely related to the Bonobo Chimpanzee. Funny thing about the Bonobo is it's a very docile chimp, over sexed but docile.
Theory goes it's BECAUSE the males get so much sex that they live in harmony. Oh to be a bonobo.

M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:57 pm

nowtime wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:we are most closely related to the Bonobo Chimpanzee. Funny thing about the Bonobo is it's a very docile chimp, over sexed but docile.
Theory goes it's BECAUSE the males get so much sex that they live in harmony. Oh to be a bonobo.
That's it! I blame cold-fish broads for all the violence in the world.

If they were to put out a little more, this whole planet would be a much better place...

Novel
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Post by Novel » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:10 pm

M. Bréqs wrote:
That's it! I blame cold-fish broads for all the violence in the world.

If they were to put out a little more, this whole planet would be a much better place...

Hmm, I think I see an angle here for those uptight, 'I want to save the world' types...

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Post by glu » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:54 pm

M. Bréqs wrote:
If they were to put out a little more, this whole planet would be a much better place...

that's probably the one thing we agree on, other than live kicking ass!
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http://alonetone.com/glu

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:32 am

M. Bréqs wrote: When one side attains a decisive, crushing victory, peace is almost inevitable.
Ok let's forget about Ireland........ oh wait! that's right? Ireland does seem to be shining example of how your theory is dead wrong eh? People who have an even slightly different culture and strong national identity tend to resent outside influence on their politics, to the point of it not being settled for hundreds of years.
You forget, Germany and Japan were the aggressors in the battle, no doubt whatsoever. That simple fact made their defeat and subsequent democratic renewal possible.
Now, lets' look at iraq, exactly how many Iraqis were there on the planes that flew into the world trade center? How many Saudis?

See, this right here, this total lack of logical direction in this "war", is what would make me wary mbreqs. What indication do we have, if any at all that we are "fighting terrorism"? Personally I'm becoming more and more convinced it was NEVER our intention to stabilize Iraq, we're just waiting for the excuse to war with Iran, then it's a permanent occupation, or at least until the oil runs out.

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Post by Machinate » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:45 am

M. Bréqs wrote:This is a problem of the chicken and the egg;

To renounce violence, you need to be reasonably certain that your enemies will also renounce violence. The only thing worse than fighting and dying is not fighting and dying.

So who goes first? I can guarantee you it won't be me.
This could be classified as Leap of Faith. But then again, so can going to war.
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