Ableton Forum

It's not so much about cost, but about the existing availability of a platform-independent Live-controlled lighting system for musicians/DJs who don't need the complexity of programming multiple rooms in a club, and the ease of synching lighting to video.

Hambone1, we never said anything about multi-room setups, that would be kind of silly and pointless as everyone want's to see a dj performing live.

As for using video, i have played with arkaos and build plugins that does things like change the video on each detected audio beat coming from lives impulse drum machine, and have the red video level being adjusted by audio coming from live's operator synth for example. beyond the capabalities of using virtual midi cables... but that's going a bit off topic.

--------------------------

So back to lighting... Everything a midi>dmx adaptor can do our solution can do too, that includes dummy clips, follow actions and whatever else a midi>dmx adaptor can use. What a midi>dmx adaptor can't do just for an example is use lives's racks which is an extremly powerfull feature when used with live's instruments and vst plugins.
I don't quite understand why you feel our solution is not needed and everytime we publish a new feature on this forum you come along and say "our solution is not needed as a midi>dmx adaptor can do this", that is not true. sometimes yes, but a lot more no.

Not sure why you don't wish to crossfade your lighting at same time as your music tracks? so professional!
Im am proud to be the worlds first dj to crossfade lighting at same time as music, must feel just like Sir Jimmy Saville did when he was the first person to mix 2 records when at the BBC.

Im pretty sure people don't want 100's of clips of lighting sequences needed to use a midi>dmx adaptor, people would like to automate there lighting to audio clips directly, just as they do for there audio effects, is where our solution shines through. Just automate an mp3 track with lighting and play. Crowd comes back next week and listens to the same track again and remembers that the stobe light kicks in during the wicked bass line and can get ready for the slow-motion strobe dance effect You on the other hand have to associate a lot of extra clips to go with your mp3 track, not a very professional solution don't you think? Unless you want random sequences produced by you clicking dummy clips or follow actions?(yes our solution can do that too.)

As I said, EVERYTHING a midi>dmx adaptor can do, we can do, but A lot more as besides

The only thing a midi>dmx adaptor can do is manualy adjust your lamp levels using abletons midi clips. which means there no knobs to play with and no associations with audio or instruments.

Then theres the delay you have to add to your audio because of bandwith issues because midi runs at 33,000 bits a seconds where as DMX runs at 250,000 bits a second, that's 8 times too slow which will be very noticable on full systems.

Then theres the stair-step problem you have sweeping your lighting slowly as midi goes from 0 to 127 where as DMX goes from 0 to 255(twice the resolution). our solution does not suffer from these problems, fast or slow our system works perfectly.

you know what would be nice ?
to choose if your plug-in outputs dmx to a dmx-adapter OR
midi cc to a midi interface plugged to a midi>dmx convertor.
so you could reach both user groups, the one using dmx-adapters
and the one using midi>dmx convertors (like me).

i am not a programmer, but if the plug-in works it seems to me
that outputting midi instead of dmx is not the most difficult thing...

Coupe70 wrote:you know what would be nice ?
to choose if your plug-in outputs dmx to a dmx-adapter OR
midi cc to a midi interface plugged to a midi>dmx convertor.
so you could reach both user groups, the one using dmx-adapters
and the one using midi>dmx convertors (like me).

i am not a programmer, but if the plug-in works it seems to me
that outputting midi instead of dmx is not the most difficult thing...

That's not a bad idea, but midi really is slow for the fade effects we have for each lamp, 8 times too slow, our plugins sample audio 40 times a second which is faster than midi so would have a bad lag. Really do't think midi is suitable for dmx, 8 times too slow.

8 times, that's a lot...
but i'm sure there are features that would work well with midi.
i'm happy with programming my lights using midi ("only" 26 dmx-channels and live-act, not djing), but generating some additional live-controllers while playing would be great.

there is no doubt that dmx is better, but midi as a bonus would be nice.
who knows what people come up with when they can route midi cc generated with your plugin to wherever they want...

ava wrote:


Im pretty sure people don't want 100's of clips of lighting sequences needed to use a midi>dmx adaptor, people would like to automate there lighting to audio clips directly, just as they do for there audio effects, is where our solution shines through. .

EXACTLY!
I am musician first and the live aspect is the most important to me. I find Hambones ways interesting but I am not interested in 1001 premade clips, doing things live to the music is what I am interested. There are lots of VJs videoDJs, AV artists coming from graphic design,film editing , I will never reach their skills in After Effects and similar, premade stuff Why people hire me is because I play visuals like I play music, light will be great expansion/extension. preparing programming is unavoidable evil to me.
I like your ideas and cant wait to get your VST, is it out already ?

I'm not knocking your system. It sounds brilliant! I'm just offering an existing alternative.

I integrate the video and lighting closely together with the music, and MIDI>DMX does this for me.

MIDI is good for triggering and parameterising lighting macros etc (or scenes if that what your stuck with working with on some crappy cheap hardware controller), but I dont like using midi for more direct control - for eg RGB fades, programming pixel boards etc - way too much of a pain - not enough lifetimes (or bandwidtth).

There a hell of alot more to good easy DMX control than easy access to the fades, switching scense chases etc - maybe fine if basically all you want to do is flip sound mode on/off on some fixture now and then - ie basic DJ type use.

rikhyray wrote: I like your ideas and cant wait to get your VST, is it out already ?

No, not yet, but it's working great, still be a few months i think.

This got me thinking...

What about DMX>MIDI? Could your plug-in then generate MIDI for VJ parameters at the same time as DMX for lighting?

hambone1 wrote: What about DMX>MIDI? Could your plug-in then generate MIDI for VJ parameters at the same time as DMX for lighting?

That's what I meant when I said "Who knows what people will come up with" - dmx output for light and midi output for visuals or whatever.
Thanks hambone !

Khazul wrote:There a hell of alot more to good easy DMX control than easy access to the fades, switching scense chases etc - maybe fine if basically all you want to do is flip sound mode on/off on some fixture now and then - ie basic DJ type use.

I think I do more with MIDI than basic DJ-type use.

Many of my tracks have the lighting and video tightly sequenced along with the audio, along with surround pan settings, loops, Impulse presets, etc.

Cymbal crash / chromakeyed nuclear explosion on screen over live camera feed / blinders & LEDs fire (simple example)

Blue Monday intro - all strobes fire on each kick / live camera feed goes positive/negative on each kick / cameras toggle between 12 pan/tilt/zoom positions every 4 beats.

Cameras go into night vision mode, all lights off but laser tunnel sweeping in time with audio filter sweep / matching sweeping audio waveform over green-tinted live crowd feed on video screens.

Audio filter, scanner/laser panning/tilting, Arkaos video sweep effect all follow a single BCR knob.

Cameras and LEDs around the room follow 360 panning audio FX loops.

You get the idea.

For the tracks that aren't preprogrammed, there are lots of video/lighting mini-sequences mapped to Faderfox buttons. Some use Follow Actions, some MIDI effects, some triggered by audio levels.

And yes, there ARE Faderfox buttons that kick different fixtures into sound-activation mode, but I use that as little as possible. Other than basic laser shapes, I don't use any of the lighting internal programs.

Now that all basic clips are made, it's just drag n drop from Live's browser to make a new sequence, then drag the completed sequence back into the browser.

hambone1 wrote:

Khazul wrote:There a hell of alot more to good easy DMX control than easy access to the fades, switching scense chases etc - maybe fine if basically all you want to do is flip sound mode on/off on some fixture now and then - ie basic DJ type use.

I think I do more with MIDI than basic DJ-type use.

Many of my tracks have the lighting and video tightly sequenced along with the audio, along with surround pan settings, loops, Impulse presets, etc.

Cymbal crash / chromakeyed nuclear explosion on screen over live camera feed / blinders & LEDs fire (simple example)

Blue Monday intro - all strobes fire on each kick / live camera feed goes positive/negative on each kick / cameras toggle between 12 pan/tilt/zoom positions every 4 beats.

Cameras go into night vision mode, all lights off but laser tunnel sweeping in time with audio filter sweep / matching sweeping audio waveform over green-tinted live crowd feed on video screens.

Audio filter, scanner/laser panning/tilting, Arkaos video sweep effect all follow a single BCR knob.

Cameras and LEDs around the room follow 360 panning audio FX loops.

You get the idea.

For the tracks that aren't preprogrammed, there are lots of video/lighting mini-sequences mapped to Faderfox buttons. Some use Follow Actions, some MIDI effects, some triggered by audio levels.

And yes, there ARE Faderfox buttons that kick different fixtures into sound-activation mode, but I use that as little as possible. Other than basic laser shapes, I don't use any of the lighting internal programs.

Now that all basic clips are made, it's just drag n drop from Live's browser to make a new sequence, then drag the completed sequence back into the browser.

Any video available of this in action? Sounds Slick!

hambone1 wrote: Now that all basic clips are made, it's just drag n drop from Live's browser to make a new sequence, then drag the completed sequence back into the browser.

could you explain how you do this with an example ?
i remember trying all this drag-in-and-drop-out-stuff
but i didn´t get very far...

Coupe70 wrote:

hambone1 wrote:could you explain how you do this with an example ?
i remember trying all this drag-in-and-drop-out-stuff
but i didn´t get very far...

Drag MIDI clips individually into the browser. I've got loads of lighting and video CC clips (single values, fade ins/outs, ease ins/outs, square, triangle, etc) Now drag them individually back into session view. Organization and tidy browsers help a lot.

Once you've got it set up the way you want, including Follow Actions, if you like. I like to use Follow Actions to make some Live super-clips random, but within my parameters. Drag the entire rectangle of MIDI clips back to the browser to make a single Live clip that you can drag back in. This could be a laser or scanner sequence, Arkaos VJ sequence, camera movement, whatever. Now you can use these individual building blocks to build an entire Live super-clip (mine have lasers, scanners, strobes, washes, floods, blinders, camera pan/tilt/zoom, Arkaos sequences, Impulse presets, surround pan settings, but not necessarily all of them in every clip.) You're only limited by your imagination!

I use two typewriter keyboards to sequence the video and lighting. It's a matter of keymapping Live super-clip scenes to the keys, then recording the lighting/video sequence while listening to the song, then tidying it up in arrangement view. Consolidate the resulting clip of dummy clips, and the entire lighting/video sequence is saved as a single Live clip. When the song's scene is launched, video, lighting, cameras and audio loops and settings automatically follow along. It's poor-man's show control, all done in Live. And once you've made a library of clips and super-clips, it's easy to knock together a new sequence, or play the super-clips live. And because it's all done with quantized dummy clips and MIDI CCs, the lighting and video always stay perfectly synched to the audio. MIDI bandwidth or 7-bit resolution is never an issue.

I can do it, I just can't explain it...