One Day The Russians Decided To Kill A Bunch Of People...

[LeifonMars]

Landrvr does have a point...

While I'm not agreeing (nor have I read) everything else he's said I will point out that
what Russia is doing to Georgia right now is nothing more than ethnic cleansing. This is no different than what Serbia did in the early 1990's. NATO responded with a large bombing that they threatened Serbia with for weeks.

What's going to happen this time around? NATO basically exists just to try and keep Russia in check after all. It could get real ugly.

Just responding to the actual topic here. No this isn't even close. Couple facts:
Russsia held georgia for almost 200 years previous to the breakup of the Soviet Union.
The territories in question, both of them in fact have declared independence from Georgia as long ago as 93, and have acted as autonomous states since then, allying themselves with Russia. Russia even issued passports to citizens there... Georgia decides to take military action against these semi autonomous states, and Russia reacts.
This is entirely different than Serbia, and ethnic serbians in Bosnia attempting to regain control over land lost after the collapse of Yugoslavia. Russia allowed Georgia autonomy, and was also responsive to the separatist movement in the semi autonomous areas.
Georgia basically got ballsy for some reason, and that's the part I don't get? Why the hell would you anger Russia?? Maybe China or the USA could have a go, but any other country, and you're signing your own death certificate. Especially considering how badly relations are between the two countries?
Anybody has any idea what the fuck Georgia was thinking let me know, because it sure confuses me? Just because we trained their soldiers doesn't mean we'll make Russia back off?

I read an article about Shaakasvili's (how the heck his name ought to be spelled) position getting rather difficult in domestic politics, and that his actions against South Ossetia took place partly to lead peoples focus elsewhere and to unite people. A classic trick gone wrong (does it really work nowadays elsewhere except islamic countries and U.S.A.?). Anyways, he sure did succeed to reorientate peoples attention.

[djshiva]

...and nobody gave a shit.


Where are the protesters? Where are the mass demonstrations? Where's the outrage? Where's the worldwide condemnation?

Oh. Shit. Forgot

If it's not the US or Israel doing the killing, it's 'legitimate and justified'.

Sorry. Carry on.

(Insert Rolleye emoticon here)


...

...

Outrage is reserved for the US and Israel. As previously stated, and subsequently proved here in this thread, all other acts of war and violence around the work are completely understood, tolerated, and justified.

...

that is absolute bullshit.

the fact is if i was out on the streets protesting every conflict from here to timbuktu, i would never even have time to eat. most conflicts are bullshit and fought over power balances and resource mongering and religious/ethnic bullshit that shouldn't even be an issue.

i think people in power, regardless of what country they "represent" are usually only representing the interests of the rich, and the working people of whatever country it happens to be are the ones who pay with their lives.

i can spread info, try and talk to people and educate them, vote for whatever rich powerful asshole wants to tell me he will do something different (and then not do it), and get out in the streets when i can, but really...you come on here yelling like a 16 yr old who just discovered his voice, but what do you expect people to do?

is there some checklist we should be checking off just so we can prove our outrage to you? or should we even bother responding to an obvious tirade made for no other reason other than to make yourself feel better than the rest of us.

you make a lot of assumptions, but i don't see any logic backing your "argument".

[4.33]

he has no logic.
it's always good to sit in a cozy chair, stare at the news driven by the people who have their very particular interests in the news and then whine on forums about things you don't even remotely have an idea of.
that's easy.
you don't need logic for that. you don't even need to have a brain for that. but you really need to have a lot of spare time for that.

[4.33]

landrvr1 you have made such a fucking moron outta yerself. again.

[andydes]

...and nobody gave a shit.


Where are the protesters? Where are the mass demonstrations? Where's the outrage? Where's the worldwide condemnation?

Oh. Shit. Forgot

If it's not the US or Israel doing the killing, it's 'legitimate and justified'.

Sorry. Carry on.

(Insert Rolleye emoticon here)


...

...

Outrage is reserved for the US and Israel. As previously stated, and subsequently proved here in this thread, all other acts of war and violence around the work are completely understood, tolerated, and justified.

...

that is absolute bullshit.

the fact is if i was out on the streets protesting every conflict from here to timbuktu, i would never even have time to eat. most conflicts are bullshit and fought over power balances and resource mongering and religious/ethnic bullshit that shouldn't even be an issue.

i think people in power, regardless of what country they "represent" are usually only representing the interests of the rich, and the working people of whatever country it happens to be are the ones who pay with their lives.

i can spread info, try and talk to people and educate them, vote for whatever rich powerful asshole wants to tell me he will do something different (and then not do it), and get out in the streets when i can, but really...you come on here yelling like a 16 yr old who just discovered his voice, but what do you expect people to do?

is there some checklist we should be checking off just so we can prove our outrage to you? or should we even bother responding to an obvious tirade made for no other reason other than to make yourself feel better than the rest of us.

you make a lot of assumptions, but i don't see any logic backing your "argument".

Don't bother Shiva, he's not interested in the facts or debating the issue, he just posted this to start a flame war. Clearly he has nothing to say except to argue with lm. The really sad thing is he doesn't even give a shit about what's going on over there.

[plexiglass]

my 5 cents: russians were, are and forever will be a sick nation

[4.33]

my 5 cents: russians were, are and forever will be a sick nation

without a doubt.

but in this particular case we are sick for stopping georgian government from killing innocent civilians of South Osetia, most of which are russian, btw.

Tshinvali has been burned down to the ground, not a single house has been left standing. georgian tanks have simply erased it in a matter of hours. people were trapped in their basements without food or water for days, and those who attempted to get out were shot by georgian hitmen.

predictably enough, as soon as the russia has put tanks into occupied south osetia - it has become the main aggressor in the western media. while some candidates in the US presidential race are dancing on the graves on innocent people. this is propaganda, and it has always been the most effective mean to influence in the right way the political views of idiot masses.

the whole world is sick, my polish mate.

[leisuremuffin]

Don't bother Shiva, he's not interested in the facts or debating the issue, he just posted this to start a flame war. Clearly he has nothing to say except to argue with lm. The really sad thing is he doesn't even give a shit about what's going on over there.

Exactly. He has shown this to be true time and time again. He is not interested in, or even capable of having an actual dialog. So i give him what he wants. someone to argue with. If you are foolish enough to want to debate him, go right ahead, but i can tell you now it will not be productive.





.lm.

[mikemc]

predictably enough, as soon as the russia has put tanks into occupied south osetia - it has become the main aggressor in the western media.

Y'know, although the Georgian president is a pro-Western legitimately, democratically elected leader, he has acted like a dictator in using troops inside his own territory against civilians, and has completely botched that. So, he has fallen back on a bunch of rhetoric in order to gain support from anybody who will listen.

I'd also say that from what we see on the news it does seem like the Russians are striking in areas in a way that is overly harsh... what would the US have done, earlier in it's history, if an enclave of Texans in Mexico was whupped up on by the Mexican army?

Bottom line, what kind of jerk uses his military inside his own borders against his own population? From what I've read, it seemed that the agreement made back in the 90s was working out no so bad. The west should condemn him as well as Russia's severity.

Russia is picking on the little country in this case so, yeh, they are going to get labeled as being the bad guy-- but the Georgian president should be called to task by his own population for his screwup.

From the US perspective, it's the stupidest part of the world. Every piddly ethnic group wants to be their own country, and if they get a chance to be their own country, they set about taking revenge on their other piddly neighbors for shit that happened at least a hundred or so years ago.

[edit] just once, I'd like to hear the West say to Russia "Hey, you guys are heavy handed and that's not the way to be -- but, in principle, in this case you have a point. Maybe let's try to work it out, together, more gracefully next time?" Also, fwiw, not that I am unmoved by pictures of poor people being indiscriminately hurt-- as long as their is violence going on, obviously the lingering issues are only compounded.

[thelike5]

"mikemc"

Bottom line, what kind of jerk uses his military inside his own borders against his own population?

Saddam Hussein.

The USA gets shit for removing him all of the time. Russia goes into Georgia kills a ton of people and they get the free pass?

What the fuck are you guys on anyways?

At least we removed the "jerk." Russia just killed a bunch of civilians while the entire world booed their athletes... which by the way, have basically sucked in the Olympics.

[andydes]

"mikemc"

Bottom line, what kind of jerk uses his military inside his own borders against his own population?

Saddam Hussein.

The USA gets shit for removing him all of the time. Russia goes into Georgia kills a ton of people and they get the free pass?

What the fuck are you guys on anyways?

At least we removed the "jerk." Russia just killed a bunch of civilians while the entire world booed their athletes... which by the way, have basically sucked in the Olympics.

The difference is that South Ossetia was being razed to the ground by Geogian forces at the time the Russian troops invaded. When we invaded iraq, Saddam was pretty well contained.

Still, how long did it take to get the jerk? And how many died in the process? Are you saying we should give Russia that much time to do the same?

I posted this before, but it seems no one got round to reading it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/au ... ia.russia5

[mdk]

Russia goes into Georgia kills a ton of people and they get the free pass?

Russia haven't gone into Georgia and have said they wont.

[mikemc]

"mikemc"

Bottom line, what kind of jerk uses his military inside his own borders against his own population?

Saddam Hussein.

The USA gets shit for removing him all of the time. Russia goes into Georgia kills a ton of people and they get the free pass?

No not the free pass, but it should be clear that the first attacks on civilians were carried out by the Georgian government. Not really clear 'tonnage' of killed at this point, but neither side was nice about anything.

But the West does not want 'the jerk' removed in this case, he's not a self-appointed dictator. 'The jerk' should be processed through his own country's internals if things work out optimally.

I am not saying that the Russians should not be criticized for this: 'getting shit' is positive, it should happen when countries engage in violence.

At this point in history, we're reaching a point where, when a country uses military force they enter a different world, one where they can lose catastrophically, but gain only fleetingly-- every conflict has a potential to become protracted.

[edit] Well, Russians have 'gone into Georgia' based on what the map indicates. That's a great point, though: the point here is that what the map currently says is the Republic of Georgia wasn't to the liking of some of the people inside its borders, and thanks to what's his name it is now up for revision. The lesson is, that is what happens when you lose at war, so if think you have to start a war, start one you are sure to win.

[landrvr1]

Russia goes into Georgia kills a ton of people and they get the free pass?

Russia haven't gone into Georgia and have said they wont.

Preferring, instead, to bomb the shit out them in Gori.


...

[mdk]

but I do understand the anti-Russian bias of our American friends as I just watched some CNN. its blindingly obvious what you're supposed to think.

There's no background and no explanations just feigned incredulity that the Russians are beating on these poor small guys with their immense might. This was then highlighted by them wasting about a minute by showing comparisons of the sizes of their military. Its pretty obvious that Russia has about 1000 times the military capacity of Georgia, that doesnt really tell us anything useful about the conflict.

btw, im not particularly pro-Russian, or pro any state. I just think its terribly sad that the people who live in South Ossetia are being massacred for no real reason except geo-political maneuvering.