ThrowAway wrote:elxicano wrote:ThrowAway wrote:
every time minimum wage is raised the price of everything goes up and the market self corrects to where it should be and the only winner of this is the government by receiving more taxes. Im not fooled into reality. If you tax the rich, the poor and middle class end up paying it anyways. I forgot to add the majority of big business will take a fraction of what tax raises they would have to pay and just pay an accountant to get them out of it. this is not a black and white situation where we can just tax the big old bad guy and make everything right.
Make miniumum wage? go to school or do something else to fix that. everyone has to live with their own decisions. I feel bad for a lot of people in shitty situations, I mean I am really sensitive to a lot of situations but those who really want out, get out. bottom line.
ThrowAway, this argument has been made many times, and maybe in the past some would say this is partly true, however In the current state of things, this is no longer true. It's a different economy and different world, to put it lightly.
The current state of the economy is all the proof I need to validate this point. Major corporations receive all kinds of tax breaks, and yet it is the common tax payer, that is most hit with the burden of their bad decisions and their failures. The CEO's, the big businesses have been receiving massive handouts, and have increasingly made some of the richest, only more rich. It would be ridiculous and wrong to say raising minimum wage created this problem.
Furthermore, you must consider who hires workers at minimum wage? The more you examine this question, the harder it become to argue your point.
Also ... don't forget that when minimum wage has been raised, it has never been done in advance or in anticipation of inflation. It has always been increased as a way to help those receiving wages at a minimum, keep up with inflation, but even still falling short.
Now arriving at another point about rising costs... again its hard to say minimum wage is cause or even that it makes a significant impact on goods, when there are larger factors. A lot can depend on the value of our dollar. Don't forget the US imports more than it exports, so this is by far the biggest factor... this is a global market in which many number of things contribute to its value and minimum wage would hardly be seen as a contributing factor.
I never said raising minimum wage created our problem. I was giving an example of what would happen if we raised taxes on the wealthy. So whats so different about our economy now that makes this untrue?
ok to answer your question about who hires minimum wage workers...gas stations, grocery stores, fast food places, restaurants, and farmers are the ones that directly effect most of us that i can think of.
And yes raises in our food costs historically can be directly connected to the raises of minimum wage.
please refute just this one point "raising taxes on the wealthy will help our economy even though they will either A) pass the price on the consumer B) hire a good accountant to save them from paying the taxes through loop holes.
Are you giving them credit that they are not some of the most greediest bastards on earth? They will make more money next year whether it helps the lower classes or not.
Really I would wager obama doesnt raises taxes on the wealthy. if he does will abandon it very quickly, as soon enough to see its not working. probably hurting us more.
First things first...
Of what you mentioned:
gas stations - the cost of gas is not based the price they pay their employees and also most gas stations, at least on the West Coast, already pay above minimum wage.
grocery stores - How this affects pay greatly depends on location. Grocery Stores in NYC generally pay minimum wage, if even that since many of them don't even hire legal citizens. Many Grocery Store on the West Coast tend to be bigger and managed differently. Many the employees receive much higher wages than minimum wage.
fast food places - Probably the only run-away winner here. I cannot refute that they pay minimum wage in these place and yes it would affect their prices.
restaurants - this is very much hit and miss, since it varies by the clientele of the restaurant and location
farmers - A big thing to consider is that many farmer *legally* bring in workers from outside the US, such as Mexico, and pay them much less than minimum wage as it does not apply here.
Now my point about minimum and it affect, is just determining on what scale or percentage it plays in increasing costs, and when considering all things that contribute to rising costs, minimum wage is among the lowest on the list.
I don't want you to think I'm not answering your question when I respond, but responding to it the way you have written would not be an argument because it lacks a major point in the discussion of raising taxes on corporations...
First you have to remember that Obama's plan is an incentive laced proposal that rewards companies with tax breaks when the company creates new jobs. It taxes them if they don't.
Now again, the reason why I agree with his proposals is because if you don't tax these companies they will continue to do what they've been doing and that's sending more jobs overseas, increasing the profit margins without passing any of those savings to consumers, which in itself shows that not taxing them is not helping our economy, and displacing a large workforce that is no longer capable of buying products at their current rate and also forces the government to pay the displaced worker through unemployment benefits. Even though companies still have to pay portions of unemployment benefits, the government still picks up a large tab simply for the already rich CEO's to become even more rich.
I think an approach that focuses on closing those gaps which allow corporations to not pay taxes is good.
I think taxing these companies for using the US soil to become rich through sending jobs overseas and by not reinvesting in the local company is a must.
I think offering the option of creating more jobs or receive higher taxes is a just incentive for doing what they should be doing on their own.
I'm not interested in rewarding the corporations for existing greed, and that's exactly what would continue to happen under a McCain administration, because its part of the foundation of the party platform.
Its ridiculous to think that we should not raise taxes on those that put us in this situation and will force those that have suffered the most to pay off the Trillion dollar+ amount to companies that have just received handouts.
Economies are built strong because they help themselves grow. The trickle down effect has worked in the past because in the past it was not the global economy it is today. Simply put, too much has changed too fast for our economy to sustains itself. This is the lesson that should have been learned during the depression when after an industrial boom, workers became disproportionally displaced by the advancement of machine labor.
We've been here before and the bottom line is that you need a comprehensive plan to get out of the mess. The banks have their Trillion dollar bailout, and now the greater population of the US needs their share to get back on track as well... To be clear this means increasing jobs, increasing the focus of industry, reforming education and reforming access to higher education. None of this is cheap and the money has to come somewhere. This is what is meant by "spread the wealth" ...its not about communism, its about taking care of home.
