Ableton Forum

pencilrocket wrote:

Martin Gifford wrote:And it's not like they've taken anything away. By way of contrast, Microsoft has gotten into the bad habit of deleting features in its products, over-simplifying, making the Windows desktop into a smartphone desktop, etc. Crazy crappiness to the max. Ableton on the other hand are just adding great features and improving the quality. It's a no brainer.

MS added features to Windows 8. So what is the point of this example to support your arguments? You are funny.

Yes, they added some features to W8. But in recent years, they removed aero, removed "copy and keep both files", reduced the number of immediately available power plans to 2, removed the start button, hid the power button, removed the up button in explorer (now returned in W8), hid and/or removed many features in Word, etc. You might have to be a power user/regular user to know.

Martin Gifford wrote:

pencilrocket wrote:

Martin Gifford wrote:And it's not like they've taken anything away. By way of contrast, Microsoft has gotten into the bad habit of deleting features in its products, over-simplifying, making the Windows desktop into a smartphone desktop, etc. Crazy crappiness to the max. Ableton on the other hand are just adding great features and improving the quality. It's a no brainer.

MS added features to Windows 8. So what is the point of this example to support your arguments? You are funny.

Yes, they added some features to W8. But in recent years, they removed aero, removed "copy and keep both files", reduced the number of immediately available power plans to 2, removed the start button, hid the power button, removed the up button in explorer (now returned in W8), hid and/or removed many features in Word, etc. You might have to be a power user/regular user to know.

And you could say ableton has done the same thing with live 9, the one I know of that Im hoping changes is that you can no longer just browse to any directory or drive you want, it has to be mapped in places, that would be removing a feature. So in the browser redesign that you list as an improvement some might find as a horrible change with features removed. This is exactly like your complaint of MS removing features that power users might have used yet still consider it a new feature that others may like

Martin Gifford wrote:Yes, they added some features to W8. But in recent years, they removed aero, removed "copy and keep both files", reduced the number of immediately available power plans to 2, removed the start button, hid the power button, removed the up button in explorer (now returned in W8), hid and/or removed many features in Word, etc. You might have to be a power user/regular user to know.

You can choose to keep both files while copying. Transfer dialogue is much feature rich than in 7. I already have 4 power plans. Start button is removed because it's obsollete, ugly, bloated, redundancy and useless. All feature are still there so it's not feature removal at all. Power off button in the launcher called 'Start' is bad design. I'm not sure who would miss that bad habit.

Word isn't OS. Unfortunately, I couldn't agree with that you call yourself a power user dude.

ezelkow1 wrote: And you could say ableton has done the same thing with live 9, the one I know of that Im hoping changes is that you can no longer just browse to any directory or drive you want, it has to be mapped in places, that would be removing a feature. So in the browser redesign that you list as an improvement some might find as a horrible change with features removed. This is exactly like your complaint of MS removing features that power users might have used yet still consider it a new feature that others may like

Fuck I thought I hadn't yet grasped the new browser? Total and complete step back not to allow a user to browse all hard drives through their browser. Full screen mode becomes kind of a hinderance this way. <-- actually full screen mode has always kind of sucked.

pencilrocket wrote:

Martin Gifford wrote:Yes, they added some features to W8. But in recent years, they removed aero, removed "copy and keep both files", reduced the number of immediately available power plans to 2, removed the start button, hid the power button, removed the up button in explorer (now returned in W8), hid and/or removed many features in Word, etc. You might have to be a power user/regular user to know.

You can choose to keep both files while copying. Transfer dialogue is much feature rich than in 7. I already have 4 power plans. Start button is removed because it's obsollete, ugly, bloated, redundancy and useless. All feature are still there so it's not feature removal at all. Power off button in the launcher called 'Start' is bad design. I'm not sure who would miss that bad habit.

Word isn't OS. Unfortunately, I couldn't agree with that you call yourself a power user dude.

Yes, you can choose to keep both files, but it's extra clicks and thinking. I have 4 power plans too, but click on the icon in the notification area and it only shows 2 plans. Start butoon is removed because MS want to move to one interface across all its products including phone. Yes, it's a feature removal - clue: it's not there and many people want it there. Check videos on the net for people not being able to find power off button. That's bad design. I know Word isn't OS, but my original post said "MS products" not OS.

BTW, your photo suits you.

After think more about it and reading through this thread, my decision is like that:

The Suite 8 to Suite 9 Upgrade for 169€ is a nice deal, I will jump on it.

The Push wil have to wait for a a price drop, and ( more important ) for
user reports about the pros and cons.

Will also wait for bitwig and the test both live/bitwig in detail an then decide further.

mhalloway's point about complaining about the way we are treated has let
Me think this all over a bit, even when I think the short discount periode is not
a nice move for loyal customers, but a smart move to push the sales directly.
And that somehow is ok.

Ableton have almost NEVER got upgrade price structures right for me.

I remember having Ableton LE, which I bought to get started with. WHen I went to look at the upgrade for being an existing customer, it was significantly more then just buying Suite to start with.

Don't forget.....generally Ableton charges the same or more for downloads then retailers do for boxed versions. This was really dafy, especially considering the boxed versions came with the EIC disc. Which was extra on it's own from Ableton...

Seeing the prices people were quoting to go from 8 to Suite 8 + Free update to Suite 9. I thought I was going to be pleasantly surprised. They actually seemed to be rewarding customers. But the fact they are charging existing suite owners more.......I've lost my faith in them again.

Then I read the bit about the discount given to M4L owners. I am so glad I sold mine for £100, just about a month before Ableton announced v9.

Unless they have a miracle change of mind between now & launch day. I can't see me upgrading. I could afford it. But I do feel like it's a raw deal. Charging your previously best clients more is just a recipe for bad relations. Charging them the same price would make many of them grumble still. Loyalty is something you are supposed to reward first rather then capitalise !

I just decided I'm going to pass on this promo and wait for Bitwig. 9 is really not that exciting for me - tried the beta and that pretty much sealed the deal. Although there is a lot to love about Live, Ableton has not offered enough with this new version. Again they seem to be falling into the trap of creating new features and not fixing what is broken.

Of course Bitwig is not out (and I'm not a beta tester) but their attitude, from what I can see, is the kind of attitude that Ableton seems to have lost. The attitude that workflow is king. Don't give me audio to midi (which I can do already with The Mouth anyhow) or the glue compresser (I already own the plugin), give me automation that does not go out of sync. Give me Waves plugins that work. Give me things that will make it easier and more fun for me to make music. (like Hybrid tracks, like 32 AND 64 bit plugin support with crash protection, like layered editing)

Adobe is king of the "add features ignore workflow" attitude. And they get away with it because they have a monopoly, but soon, I hope, Ableton will not have a monopoly on the progressive DAW.

Thought I'd add my Live pricing head scratcher:

I bought Live for $337 soon after the 25% discount was announced (a few months ago). Going with Suite instead would have been $187 more (and still is). Now I'm considering upgrading to suite, but my upgrade price is $299. That means it is cheaper (by a long shot) for me to sell my Live license for a bit less that I paid for it then buy Suite new rather than upgrade Live to Suite. That doesn't make sense to me since whoever buys my license is someone that may have otherwise bought a new license directly from Ableton. I'd expect the upgrade to be a bit more than new to give people incentive to go with Suite from the get go, but not so much more that there's motivation to sell the license and buy Suite new (I'm thinking $20-40 more, $50 max rather than $112). I was honestly expecting my price to be more like $199 or $225 while the promotion is in effect.

DLVR wrote:Thought I'd add my Live pricing head scratcher:

I bought Live for $337 soon after the 25% discount was announced (a few months ago). Going with Suite instead would have been $187 more (and still is). Now I'm considering upgrading to suite, but my upgrade price is $299. That means it is cheaper (by a long shot) for me to sell my Live license for a bit less that I paid for it then buy Suite new rather than upgrade Live to Suite. That doesn't make sense to me since whoever buys my license is someone that may have otherwise bought a new license directly from Ableton. I'd expect the upgrade to be a bit more than new to give people incentive to go with Suite from the get go, but not so much more that there's motivation to sell the license and buy Suite new (I'm thinking $20-40 more, $50 max rather than $112). I was honestly expecting my price to be more like $199 or $225 while the promotion is in effect.

Wow,We all need a degree or something to ork out the pricing structure,buddy

Took me ages to get to grips with this,Ableton is a great product,sure,but let down by marketing,and of course the web design too
What should have been done,is a kind of interactive table or something,where you put in your software etc,and then it leads you too your actual price for the new stuff
Maybe that's too advanced?I have seen this done before,and its heck of a lot easier to understand

Well according to my login and hitting shop it is $249 (up from $234 last month) for Suite 9 or $159 for Standard, and on top of this *special* discount it lasts for a whopping ONE WEEK. Well, looking very likely I won't be spending any hard earned (i.e. job) coined for this update any time soon. So much for special discounted price for Live 8 Suite owners. That is unless it's a fake price until 3/5/2013 when we put it into the shopping cart and it magically drops maybe $25. I am not at all thrilled with this ONE WEEK deal for one, pricing another considering what myself and others have invested over time. Call me what you will, just not late for dinner. I am on the fence and basically told sales I doubt I'll be purchasing it. Ends don't justify the means here cost-wise for me, it isn't my *job*, it's more of a hobby but it'd be nice to have M4L (which I don't own) for some of the effects, but I have all the other instruments + ones I have purchased via packs so I can't really justify $249 + shipping/whatever on this update, and I'm seriously ticked about this crappy one week only deal. I know others are as well and some are not. I'll just say bully for you that you're happy about it.

End of my rant, I may look on 3/5 to see if there's any significant price drop (doubt it) but leaning very heavily against any expenditure, especially timed.

Mike

[Edit] - got the basic schpeal on pricing via Abe's and the deal is one week and that's it. Take it or leave it pretty much, not that I expected any other type of response. Looks like I may either get Standard and live with that and existing instruments/packs or suck it up and spend $90 more for more content (gee, how much more are they giving for the orchestral stuff vs EIC 2 stuff anyways, doubt much additional if any)>

So what is the upgrade price from Suite 8 to 9 during the one week special for those who do NOT have M4L?

*Edit: I finally remembered how to check the upgrade price but it seemed like it was cheaper before. I'm not gonna lose my mind either way but I wish they had just gotten their ducks in a row and handled this rollout better. Not very confidence inspiring.

DJ_Zombot wrote:So what is the upgrade price from Suite 8 to 9 during the one week special for those who do NOT have M4L?

Log into your account, go to shop, go to bottom of page to check your prices. Mine (Suite 8 w/o M4L to 9 Suite) is $249, or $159 for Suite 8 to 9 Standard, and ONE WEEK ONLY....nice eh? Sarcasm off now....

Giving a smaller discount to Live 8 Suite owners compared to those with Live 8 Standard is just wrong. Operator + Sampler + Electric + Collision + Tension + Analog + extra content, residual value 25 ????? eh? not feeling pleased with Ableton right now.

crumhorn wrote:Giving a smaller discount to Live 8 Suite owners compared to those with Live 8 Standard is just wrong. Operator + Sampler + Electric + Collision + Tension + Analog + extra content, residual value 25 ????? eh? not feeling pleased with Ableton right now.

Yep, geared toward new purchasers it seems and I bought Operator at the least before jumping on Suite back around version 6 or 7 maybe when I paid >$400 on update...ouch that one hurt, then later ones were $2xx including Live 8. Not feeling the love like some others, especially the fact that this *discount* lasts a whopping ONE WEEK then jacked up to $299 again.....glad I have Studio One V2.5 as well and can rewire Live into it if/as needed.