Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion.

[shtreimel]

you're stumped, and have nothing to say on the balfour declaration. This is a first?

That's that. I've participated in one too many on-line ME discussions...w/ nasty things being said by both sides. Next.

Ah, work's slow:
http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm

Zionism did not spring full blown from a void with the creation of the Zionist movement in 1897. Jews had maintained a connection with Palestine, both actual and spiritual, even after the Bar Kochba revolt in 135

There are different theories about why the British agreed to issue the Balfour declaration when they issued it. One possibility is that the declaration was deliberately contrived to allow the British to renege on earlier promises to France and the Arabs regarding Palestine. Lloyd George reportedly said that British control over Palestine would prevent it from falling into the hands of the agnostic atheistic French. Another hypothesis, is that the declaration was intended to curry favor with the Jews, so that the Jews in the United States and Russia would influence their governments to support the British cause in the war. However, the declaration did not fall as a bolt from the blue, but was rather the culmination of a long tradition in Britain that supported restoration of the Jews to their own land for philosophical, religious and imperialistic motives.

[b0unce]

you're stumped, and have nothing to say on the balfour declaration. This is a first?

That's that. I've participated in one too many on-line ME discussions...w/ nasty things being said by both sides. Next.

Ah, work's slow:
http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm

Zionism did not spring full blown from a void with the creation of the Zionist movement in 1897. Jews had maintained a connection with Palestine, both actual and spiritual, even after the Bar Kochba revolt in 135

you cant have your cake and eat it too, pal. The point I raised is pertinent to this discussion, in order to establish that RELIGION is not the motivation some posters make it out to be. You can say 'hey I wont discuss that' if you like...but not because its irrelevant to this discussion. It is relevant.

thanks for the link, I understand it much more clearly now.
</sarcasm>

[Machinesworking]

religion, my ass! post-holocaust guilt, my ass!

bOunce...the creation of Israel has to do with a complex set of variables. To point to "politics" or "oil" is akin to stating that "men like sex" as the sole reason why a husband cheats on his wife.

complex ? not as complex as you make it out to be, hard to spin maybe,....you're stumped, and have nothing to say on the balfour declaration. This is a first?

Besides, my main point is that its down to almost everything but any genuine religious altruism on the part of britain, religion is the smoke screen abused by people with political agendas, and retards who sap up tabloid literature.

Have to agree with bounce here. the english have always ben masterminds of divide and conquer. The creation of Israel was definitely as much a political maneuvering on the part of one of the worlds foremost super powers in regards to the fine art of war as it was a way of dealing with the holocaust, and really let's face it, it was more about setting up a consistent point of conflict in the middle east than it was about being nice to the jewish people.
Do you really believe that the landed gentry in England and other high rollers around the world care for anything other than their own backs?
One thing I've learned from working for multi millionaires for the last ten years is that everyone, no matter how rich believes that tomorrow the mongrel hoards will steal everything if they don't safe guard it. That is the golden rule, period. the english royalty and wealthy live by this.
The english used the poor scots against the irish, giving them property that belonged to the irish, and even business establishments, and now people are happy pretending it is all about protestant VS catholic, but I'm dammed sure bounce could straighten you out about that! Thing is, knowing that history, it's easy for anybody who has seriously looked at Israel's inception to see how it just happens to once again be an english plan, property was given etc. and it conveniently divides people on religious lines to the advantage of...... England.


Sorry shtreimel, had nothing to add about AA, or the pill thing, I'm, in total agreement about that. Pills are a joke IMO. The jewish therapist friend of mine does not like em either! Though AA does exclude atheists big time, I'm glad the local chapters allow atheist meetings, but that's rare. Every atheist I've known who went through AA had a hard time with it, chastised etc. serious. Sad considering it's the sense of community that makes AA IMO, not the giving in to a higher power part.

[shtreimel]

thanks for the link, I understand it much more clearly now.
</sarcasm>

You see bOunce, that's the problem w/ these discussions. If you state an observation or an opinion. Folks ask for a link. So you provide a link, and folks say it's biased site. And on and on and on.

I've been reading and studying middle east history for some time now, served briefly in IDF, have family in the IDF, have family living in Israel, discuss these issues with left/right wing folks every shabbat...what can I tell you. I've got little patience for ignorance and simple minded opinions about a very, very complex situation...from the founding...to the wars...to the settlements...religious zionism...christian zionism....anti-zionist hassidim...shiite...sunnis...secular plo...brit, then france, then us involvement...very, very, very complex.

[b0unce]

However, the declaration did not fall as a bolt from the blue, but was rather the culmination of a long tradition in Britain that supported restoration of the Jews to their own land for philosophical, religious and imperialistic motives.

first of all, why not post the link to that article...
http://www.mideastweb.org/mebalfour.htm
secondly, who wrote it ?
Ami Isseroff, director of MidEast Web, is co-coordinator, with Ameen Hannoun, of the Internet PEACE Mid-East Dialog and editor of PeaceWatch, the PEACE dialogs Web journal. He is a programmer, system designer and technical writer. As a Senior Researcher in the Weizmann Institute, he pioneered microcomputer applications for scientific research.
http://www.weizmann.ac.il/

gee...why does weizmann ring a bell ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_De ... on_of_1917

At that time the British were busy making promises. Henry McMahon had exchanged letters with Hussein ibn Ali, Sheriff of Mecca in 1915, in which he had promised the Arabs control of the Arab lands, exclusive of the Mediterranean coast. The extent of the coastal exclusion is not clear. Hussein protested that the Arabs of Beirut would greatly oppose isolation from the Arab state or states, but did not, it seems, bring up the matter of the Jerusalem area, which included a good part of Palestine. This suggests either that the area of Jerusalem and Palestine was not part of the inclusion and was promised to the Arabs, as shown in some maps, and is believed by pro-Arab historians, or that Palestine was included, but that Hussein did not protest. The latter version is supported by Dr. Haim Weizmann in his autobiographical book Trial and Error. This interpretation was also convenient for the British , and was supported explicitly by the British government in the 1922 White Paper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_De ... on_of_1917

One of the main proponents of a Jewish homeland in Palestine was Dr. Chaim Weizmann, the leading spokesman for organized Zionism in Britain. Weizmann was a chemist who had developed a process to synthesize acetone via fermentation. Acetone is required for the production of cordite, a powerful propellant explosive needed to fire ammunition without generating tell-tale smoke. Germany had cornered supplies of calcium acetate, a major source of acetone. Other pre-war processes in Britain were inadequate to meet the increased demand in the Great War, and a shortage of cordite would have severely hampered Britain's war effort. Lloyd-George, then Minister for Munitions, and later to succeed Balfour as Prime Minister, was grateful to Weizmann and so supported his Zionist aspirations.

I dont know why you present Ami Isserof's opinion as some kind of revalation or fact....its just his opinion , cant you make your own or do you just hitch your trailor to blatantly biased people ?

[shtreimel]

I dont know why you present Ami Isserof's opinion as some kind of revalation or fact....its just his opinion , cant you make your own or do you just hitch your trailor to blatantly biased people ?

bOunce...how many links, from how many people, would convince you of the complex nature involved with the founding of the state? This is rhetorical, and I'm done with this topic. 'night

[b0unce]

weak...
weak...
weak...


and whats your point, I didnt say it wasnt complex (not so complex it cant be discussed) , I'm just drilling my point home that the birth of Israel is genuinely down to politricks, not a righteous religious movement backed by an altruist britain. SMOKESCREEN.

I prefer to deal with facts, and draw my own conclusions. On the topic of the balfour declaration, all you can do is cut-and-paste some blatantly biased material ?....and in your own words the best you can do is summarise "...very, very, very complex" ... ?

very, very, very hard to spin.

and anyone genuinely interested in whats been said here about religion would do well to take note of shtreimels political inclinations while he's lecturing from his soap box.

[shtreimel]

the birth of Israel is genuinely down to politricks, not a righteous religious movement backed by an altruist britain.

Why'd the Jews get Palestine/Israel?
Where did secular, european Jews get the idea for "zionism"?

[Machinesworking]

and whats your point, I didnt say it wasnt complex (not so complex it cant be discussed) , I'm just drilling my point home that the birth of Israel is genuinely down to politricks, not a righteous religious movement backed by an altruist britain. SMOKESCREEN.

Yup, basically anybody who cares about the rights of all people, and pays attention to what political movers are behind seemingly "complex" messes like Israel, Ireland, even India to a degree.. you end up noticing a common thread.
Funny how nobody will ever admit they are a pawn in a chess game, it's always an intricate set of situations and really beyond common sense etc.
England isn't the only country guilty of this, it just gets some props in this particular set up, and honestly, they are by far the best at this sort of thing. The US can't pull it off without it being blatantly obvious at best.

[shtreimel]

Yup, basically anybody who cares about the rights of all people, and pays attention to what political movers are behind seemingly "complex" messes like Israel, Ireland, even India to a degree..

Another possible explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promised_land

Nah...that's only what, 2000...3000 years old? Interesting that the The Dalai Lama felt that the Jews were experts in "exile" and believed they'd have something to teach Buddhists about exile and, ultimately, return (see: Jew and the Lotus).

To remove religion, both the source of Zionism and, many religious Christians and Jews feel, God's desire in action, from the founding of the State of Israel is to willfully ignore thousands of years of history, culture, prayer and theology.

The Balfour Declaration is merely a fart - and a smelly one at that...read anything about the White Papers - in the longing for, and creation of, Israel.

[Machinesworking]

Yup, basically anybody who cares about the rights of all people, and pays attention to what political movers are behind seemingly "complex" messes like Israel, Ireland, even India to a degree..

Another possible explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promised_land

Nah...that's only what, 2000...3000 years old? Interesting that the The Dalai Lama felt that the Jews were experts in "exile" and believed they'd have something to teach Buddhists about exile and, ultimately, return (see: Jew and the Lotus).

To remove religion, both the source of Zionism and, many religious Christians and Jews feel, God's desire in action, from the founding of the State of Israel is to willfully ignore thousands of years of history, culture, prayer and theology.

The Balfour Declaration is merely a fart - and a smelly one at that...read anything about the White Papers - in the longing for, and creation of, Israel.

The jewish people's desire for the creation of the state of Israel really has nothing to do with what I'm saying, or bounce really. Basically that desire was used by a colonial power to gain leverage in a region, period.
Whether or not you, or oddly enough the paranoid white supremacists want to admit it or not, jewish political influence isn't one tenth as powerful as the influence wielded by people with motives that have nothing to do with judaism or really christianity in the least.
Basically, the religious motives of your people were used by the political motives of the colonial powers to keep an area of the planet divided up purposefully.
Now that being said, Israel exists, therefore it has a right to exist, it would be foolish to think otherwise. Like having all white people leave the USA and Canada because the natives got screwed, or sending all scottish and english heritage people who have lived in Ireland for centuries back to the british isles. But! (and to me this is important and I wish there was some way to convince you of this), every time Israel gets into conflicts with it's neighbors they are fulfilling their role in this game of chess! Israel is a pawn, and your religious convictions are being used to divide you from your neighbors.

[Tone Deft]

I'm still waiting to hear religious opinions on satan. Why not blame the creation of Israel on satan? If god helped moses find the promise land, why can't satan be blamed for Israel.

I know it was the FSM who created Israel, but anyway...

[Machinesworking]

I'm still waiting to hear religious opinions on satan. Why not blame the creation of Israel on satan? If god helped moses find the promise land, why can't satan be blamed for Israel.

I know it was the FSM who created Israel, but anyway...

Tone deft, go listen to Bob Marley!

[glu]

I can't leave campus without passing by some street preacher shouting to (no one listening) about the glory of our lord god. It makes me want to take off my clothes and run around them in circles screaming/singing to be saved...but then I would proably get expelled.

I need to get a shirt like this instead:

[shtreimel]

But! (and to me this is important and I wish there was some way to convince you of this), every time Israel gets into conflicts with it's neighbors they are fulfilling their role in this game of chess! Israel is a pawn, and your religious convictions are being used to divide you from your neighbors.

My point is simple, the creation of Israel is a result of many factors. To ignore British influence would be to deny post-WW1 history. But Zionism, both the 1st and 2nd Aliyah pre-date the Balfour Declaration by many, many years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Pre ... 00-1882.29
You can read Chomsky...Oren...they've all got their take on why/how Israel exists. Her creation is the result of politics, theology, prayer, anti-semitism and european guilt.