Ableton Forum

I was sat on the sofa with my laptop and Nocturn last night, jamming out some clips; was making some pretty sounds that I was quite happy with.

It got me to thinking; with Ableton working like it does (session view + controller = insta-improv), why do we, as gigging musicians, write complete tracks? I for one haven't really written anything super solid (bar the track I posted last week) for a very long time, simply because it feels better for me to put together a series of clips and go completely improv.

There's something quite satisfying about the happy mistakes that happpen whilst jamming; even if you don't record them, they always have a tendency to come back around!

Whatcha recon? Is this electronic music lark going to turn into one giant jam session, with good quality albums becoming fewer and fewer?

because my music doesn't lend itself to jamming... because it's about carefully constructed intricately interlaced structurally sequenced melodically co-dependent sounds which work as part of a linear piece, a piece i spend countless hours composing, tweaking and re-arranging so it's just perfect, a piece which contains recorded improvisation where appropriate but is mainly sequenced?

i'm not saying any of the above makes the music good, btw; but that's just how i work, and that's why i write songs

Personally I prefer songs with a start and finish. I realy am not keen on tracks that lumber on for ages. I get bored of a track that goes on for more than 7 minutes.

All down to personal taste though I guess

creature wrote:I get bored of a track that goes on for more than 7 minutes.

So I'm guessing you're not into this... http://www.monolake.de/releases/ml-003.html



Length does not have to equal monotony.

I like making performance sets as well as song sets in Live. Variation is what makes music (consumtion and production) interesting.

.m

Seems to be an interesting question. So this is my opinion to the original post.

I wouldn´t like music to go in this direction. I spend so much time to filter out the mediocre, exchangeable stuff on beatport ,etc..
I´m often caught in the situation where I feel bad just because someone wants me to add as a myspace-friend but I can hear his/her/their lack of dedication for making good tracks.
I simply can´t listen to this kind of music.

Sometimes it is just not right to present your first baby steps in audioland and assume most ppl might discover the talent that may unfold in the forthcoming years.

I have always prefered a well sounding performance by a guy with no stage acting over the hands-on and live aspect when it comes to concerts.
Unfortunately we will go in the direction of the original poster. Visuals sometimes have become the sole reason to attend a show. Who needs good audio?
As long as the bass a pumpin and you can hear the singer´s voice everything is fine.

I was a little bit shocked when I saw these minimal tutorials by this guy with this italian sounding name (brunetti?).

If that´s the way how music can be made I´m not interested in this stuff at all.
I acknowledge his skills to set up something like this within minutes.
But it also might give us a hint why so much tracks/songs/scapes sound so impersonal and lifeless.

If you let Mr. Random play a crucial part in your work it isn´t you who earns the credit.
It is the guy who made the program and the algorithm. The same goes for presets.

I know some ppl who also claim to make music and they don´t even know how they can modulate a cutoff or program an adsr-curve so it suits the track.
They rather switch to the next preset and see if it fits. You need to combine this lack of basic understanding of how a synth/sampler works
with the inability to arrange a track properly and then you´ll have this sort of tracks we all don´t need. Btw, none of them is able to play an instrument in a very rudimentary way.

It is all about dedication, preparation and a matter of time. Then it doesn´t become a question of a) a perfectly mixed piece of music or b) a unique live performance.

Both of them are goals I´d like to achieve but never will.

der Ivo

cubehog wrote: Unfortunately we will go in the direction of the original poster. Visuals sometimes have become the sole reason to attend a show. Who needs good audio?
As long as the bass a pumpin and you can hear the singer´s voice everything is fine.

I take your point but I don't think this was the original posters intention.

I think it was more related to why we chose to make 7mins of audio and call it a track? Why not just make smaller chunks like chord progressions, riffs, one hits, bass lines etc... and then assemble them lego-style as you go. Whilst the audio may not be perfect there's a sense of excitement as everyone knows it could all go wrong at any moment.

I used to play in a funk/reggae band and we came to same point. We got tired of writing songs and ended up just writing parts (and recycling old riddims) and just jamming out stuff. Sure, a great deal of stuff didn't sound so good but every now and then it would just kick into place and we'd all be grinning like idiots for next hour. So much fun.

cubehog - you make some very good points; it is often difficult to find well-structured music amongst the BeatPort, bedroom-Cubase massive! I think I may have put myself on a bit of a downer from the start by not mentioning that I don't use preset sounds, and try to get the most from a really simple clip!

The general lifelessness of the market, as you said of the 'minimal' tutorials, is because everything is now so accessible. This is why my thoughts drive over to the arena of live performance.

If everyone is making preset-based chart-techno in their bedrooms, why would the people who do actually spend hours crafting a single synth tone try to compete? Surely they would venture over to the unsafety of a live performance to hone their craft, and make something completely individual. This, to me, would come as challenge to both the sounds you make and to the technology you have. When I listen to alot of the netlable downloads and 'freebies' that some website give away, I will generally only hear maybe 1 or 2 tracks from a ten-track pack that I like. The rest of it is either too far removed from what I actually like, or just plain dull; there's only so many wannabe Trentemoellers that I can listen to!

This could, however, all stem from the fact that I'm now having to completely re-learn my craft. I've been doing this computer music shizzle for what feels like a lifetime - at least ten years - and have found that my old techniques and sounds just don't cut it anymore; for the industry, or for my own ears. Trying to write a decent song, a decent melody, or just craft some decent sounds is very, very, very, very hard! It pysically upsets me if I can't get a song to come together.

Maybe session view isn't so good after all... (couldn't write any more...braindead!)

optimistic wrote: I take your point but I don't think this was the original posters intention.

I think it was more related to why we chose to make 7mins of audio and call it a track? Why not just make smaller chunks like chord progressions, riffs, one hits, bass lines etc... and then assemble them lego-style as you go. Whilst the audio may not be perfect there's a sense of excitement as everyone knows it could all go wrong at any moment.

I used to play in a funk/reggae band and we came to same point. We got tired of writing songs and ended up just writing parts (and recycling old riddims) and just jamming out stuff. Sure, a great deal of stuff didn't sound so good but every now and then it would just kick into place and we'd all be grinning like idiots for next hour. So much fun.

You, sir, have hit the nail on the head! It's all about the sections, segments, and interludes!

RECYCLE!

I go for a bit of both TBH...

I've just spent a few months really nailing my live set for gigging and there are no "songs" in there, just clips and scenes which I jam out live to allow me to improvise my set. I love the fact that my set is never the same twice and my emphasis has always been on creating live, unsequenced techno (with Live as much as it was using my MPC-based setup) - I went several months without even hitting tab once.

Then a couple of weeks ago, I felt the need to create a complete "song" - so I grabbed a bunch of clips which I knew worked really well together from my live gigs, hit tab and got arranging. I love this as well because I can get a lot more detailed with the editing than I can realistically be with my live set (I only have 2 hands!) and create new dimensions.

It's also nice sometimes to have a complete piece of music with a beginning and an end that people can listen to and get the essence of what my music is about, in a format that they are perhaps more familiar with.

Personally I like to 'freeze' all session view possibilities, after experimenting a little bit into arrangement view, to have a complete song. That's the way I feel music I'm not the goes on forever kind, expect you have to create a randomly generated music piece for an exhibition, primarily permanent pictures or tech exhibit.
So yes, writing music the 'old' way is still something I like to do.

- Best
- Pasha

I'm starting to think my musical objectives are extremely unlike anyone else's here. Maybe Live's the wrong program for a songwriter...? Eh, too bad my only options are Fruity Loops, Cubase, and SONAR. Fucking PC.

If you can't bash out the chords on a guitar or piano while singing the tune/lyrics then it's not a song...

IMHO.

cubehog wrote:
I know some ppl who also claim to make music and they don´t even know how they can modulate a cutoff or program an adsr-curve so it suits the track.

Quote of the year. Can I use it my signature?

Folk guitarists, reggae bassists, concert pianists, jazz saxophonists, rock drummers, entire philharmonic orchestras, etc. probably wouldn’t agree with that sentiment.

But then many of these people say what I do isn't real music. The shoe's on the other foot now, mofos.

Baron von Case wrote:I'm starting to think my musical objectives are extremely unlike anyone else's here. Maybe Live's the wrong program for a songwriter...? Eh, too bad my only options are Fruity Loops, Cubase, and SONAR. Fucking PC.

I'm a songwriter and a better one since I use Live!

creature wrote: Length does not have to equal monotony.

Unfortunately MOST of the time thats EXACTLY what it equals.

I've got nothing against a 7 min. track as long as it moves , has dips in it and a nice change or three.