Ban Timur/Crash?

[Machinesworking]

I've used computer based sequencers for 20 years now. There isn't a single DAW ever that didn't have a crippling bug that kept a certain part of the paying user base unhappy. Not one. Even Logic 4.8 which was 100% working for me, had a few bugs that bothered other people.

So what?

Isn't it strange how so many people around here bash on Microsoft and Vista shouting: Bah, throw Vista into the bin, it's bug-ridden and performs badly, don't ever use it or give it any chance, stick to XP!

The very same people keep repeating how Ableton is no miracle company in that it cannot release bug-free software and how incredibly "complex" DAWs like Live are (as if other software is not, especially OSes) and to give Ableton a break and not show more understanding.

Not only is that quite bigoted, but also no one ever asked Ableton to release 100% bug-free software to begin with. The main concern revolves about how they handle bugs. I don't find anything particular over-complex in README files, do you?

Your main concern is centered around your bugs, due to your set up, OS, hardware, software etc. If it's not affecting everybody then it's not as important to them to fix it. You being a dick about it to them does NOTHING to help your cause, and I really don't get that part? I have no idea why you think acting like an angry parent towards them will send them scurrying off to code your list of bugs away?? That's why you perceive it's about you, because you can't just report a bug, you have to add an insult to it, and you have since day one.

Nobody around here bashes XP, yet you MUST use an OS that is not accepted yet as a standard for music production, yet it's other people that are being hypocrites because you want to use the latest OS no matter what the rest of the industry is doing.

[mikemc]

Nobody around here bashes XP, yet you MUST use an OS that is not accepted yet as a standard for music production, yet it's other people that are being hypocrites because you want to use the latest OS no matter what the rest of the industry is doing.

For a semi-serious moment: I've got Vista for my admittedly modest use, and I have given some thought, at times, to reproduce some of the things Timur encounters. But, because, as is accurately noted, the reporting of these things are not boiled down to a set of 1), 2), 3)... n) steps, and are often accompanied by rancor, it is difficult to extend the time and effort.

I'm sure Timur/Crash is a smart guy. I could probably even learn some things from reproducing these issues, but it's just not worth it.

A bit of insight, maybe: I've worked in support for an API library where questions would come from very smart people who have struggled for a long time with an issue, and often felt like they had failed/were stupid for having to contact support, so their opening statements would be geared towards demonstrating how smart they were.

However, it was never the case that "how smart they were" had anything to do with the cause of, and ultimate solution for, their problem.

As Robert Henke mentioned in an earlier thread, this is primarily a forum about music for people who like and make music, and I have rarely seen anyone with a reasonably phrased question or issue not get an answer that is at least somewhat helpful.

So if Crash/Timur wants people to try to work with you through his issues, I would suggest that he value the time that people might expend in a) understanding the posts/report and b) in trying to reproduce them.

Because ultimately, maybe sadly and maybe not, Crash/Timur's ability to achieve something musicially to his liking, using the equipment of his choosing, is an undertaking he has embarked on his own accord, for himself and by himself, with no guarantees of producing a single note of soul-satifying merit.

As it is for all of us. [/b][/i]

[Khazul]

So what you're saying here is you would rather see developers given large rations of shit for what is a SOP in the industry,

Development companies (rather than indivuals who have little or no influence on the actual business choices, and therefore the shipping quality bar, quality assurance processes etc) - then yes actually - just like in any other industry.

Think about this while you sit their blindly defending Ableton - Ableton are in a way way way better shape on this front than say Steinberg, so if there was a huge back lash from customers right across the industry (not just music software) - who do you think would take the biggest hit out of these two companies?

Do you think such a backlash might possibly influence companies to focus more on quality rather than pilling on yet more and more random features on top of shakey foundations?

[Machinesworking]

So what you're saying here is you would rather see developers given large rations of shit for what is a SOP in the industry,

Development companies (rather than indivuals who have little or no influence on the actual business choices, and therefore the shipping quality bar, quality assurance processes etc) - then yes actually - just like in any other industry.

Think about this while you sit their blindly defending Ableton - Ableton are in a way way way better shape on this front than say Steinberg, so if there was a huge back lash from customers right across the industry (not just music software) - who do you think would take the biggest hit out of these two companies?

Do you think such a backlash might possibly influence companies to focus more on quality rather than pilling on yet more and more random features on top of shakey foundations?

Don't even know why I'm bothering to reply, except to say if you really want my input, and actually had read anything I posted on this subject, you wouldn't accuse me of "blindly defending Ableton", it's no way to get anything going other than a flame war.

read what I wrote. Ableton are not perfect, granted Cubase is a bigger mess, in fact most DAWs are in worse shape. There have been versions of most DAWs that manage to be 99% bug free, but that's about it.
You want new features and you have to accept that the code might end up buggy, you want stability, freeze your system when everything is working stably, and only upgrade when EVERYONE says it's stable. this is what the pros do, they use whatever works, and stay away from the bleeding edge for critical work. You buy Live 8 and complain about it's bugs, and I'll just think you haven't been using software for very long.

to answer your question, how in the hell do you prevent new users from buying whatever DAW decides not to follow through with 100% stable software and adds a fuck ton of new features??? Welcome to the pitfall of the free market. They all try to balance between the two from what I can tell, hence me saying the best real world advice I can give is to not be tied exclusively to one DAW.

[last man on earth]

Well, it's been about 24 hours...

A few points of my own, and I'll be done.

- People voted against banning, but because they think that it's wrong, not because they agree with crash, and I understand that completely. Even if the vote had gone the other way, I don't think anything would have come of it, except what has come of it as it is.

- Crash's fanclub is obviously a fraction of the size of the anti-crash fanclub, which was already obvious, according to activity in (many) other threads.

- Something Dom mentioned in another thread: Support is currently free, and he has not chosen to refuse it to Crash...what that says to me is that there is a possibility of being charged for customer service, and that while Dom could, after what he and other see as abuse, refuse service, he has not refused support to Crash, yet. However, customer service is something that Ableton could at any time start charging for, if they wished...something like that would reduce the amount of customer support emails drastically, giving support/development more time to work on/improve Live, while making the customer more self reliant. Digidesign, Apple, and others charge for customer service (while their user bases continues to grow, I might add), and if Crash had the same level of correspondence with them that he has had with Ableton, he'd be in debt up to his eyeballs right now.

- Steinberg, KVR, and Cycling 74 (among others) would have banned Crash at the first sign of any abuse or posting personal emails to try to discredit their staff...that Crash is still here is an act of kindness, as well as an act of respect for freedom of speech, which is why, I think, that many people voted against banning him.

Personally, I don't mind technical posts, and if something Crash says actually helps someone, that's great, but his comments on the quality of support, as well as his arguments are something I, and apparently many others, can do without.

If he can come up with undisputed proof as to the truth of his claims (and by undisputed, I mean agreement from Henke and support that Crash is correct), I might begin to hold stock in his comments, but while they are laced with anti-ableton rhetoric, I have no use for any of it...they just make finding stuff worth reading harder to find. On top of that, you always get faster results from people by being nice, even if the result is that they can't help you...I can just picture the Ableton support office, five guys punching each other in the face to see who falls down first and making the loser take the Timur email this week .

One last thing - the numbers on this poll/topic are totally messed up:
In 24 hours, there have been over 2000 views, 63 comments, and 83 votes...shit like that is why Bush has been in office the last 8 years, and why we (America) are in the spot we're in right now; something like that is worth some thought.

[forge]

I personally haven't felt any inclination to read more than one line of any of his posts

Yeah, isn't that great. "I don't read his posts, but they are shit". You may be right about the latter, but it's still such an insightful statement.

well no - I never said your posts were shit, because as I said they are usually so long I don't read them

the issue here is the lack of respect you are showing to the Ableton employees, they have made it known that they feel harassed by you and that you are spreading a lot of inflammatory misinformation that is actually making their job harder

remember there are real people on the end of those emails, and they are actually genuine, nice people, and are also very hard working.

you are flooding the forum with your critical posts, many of which are not accurate and it is a nuisance

you also display an incredible arrogance and self importance thinking that any issues you bring to light should be the top priority, completely missing the fact that Live is a very complex program and there are MANY things wrong with it, and many other users who have issues that are important to them that they need fixing, and Ableton want ALL of these issues fixed, but there are only so many hours in the day

you don't even seem to complain about things that affect your own music making, you just look for problems

I was suggesting that maybe people should not encourage you and then you might tone it down a bit - nobody wants to ban anyone, but you are really pushing it

but really, I honestly don't understand how you have the time to write so many huge posts and how you can consider that a valuable use of your time

as Hoffman2k has said before - if you are really interested in fixing bugs, the report needs to be a simple list of steps taken to expose the bug so that ABleton can fix it - like 1 paragraph

[Gurulogic]

Skim 2 pages....skip ahead 3....this has gotten boring!

[Khazul]

So what you're saying here is you would rather see developers given large rations of shit for what is a SOP in the industry,

Development companies (rather than indivuals who have little or no influence on the actual business choices, and therefore the shipping quality bar, quality assurance processes etc) - then yes actually - just like in any other industry.

Think about this while you sit their blindly defending Ableton - Ableton are in a way way way better shape on this front than say Steinberg, so if there was a huge back lash from customers right across the industry (not just music software) - who do you think would take the biggest hit out of these two companies?

Do you think such a backlash might possibly influence companies to focus more on quality rather than pilling on yet more and more random features on top of shakey foundations?

Don't even know why I'm bothering to reply, except to say if you really want my input, and actually had read anything I posted on this subject, you wouldn't accuse me of "blindly defending Ableton", it's no way to get anything going other than a flame war.

read what I wrote. Ableton are not perfect, granted Cubase is a bigger mess, in fact most DAWs are in worse shape. There have been versions of most DAWs that manage to be 99% bug free, but that's about it.
You want new features and you have to accept that the code might end up buggy, you want stability, freeze your system when everything is working stably, and only upgrade when EVERYONE says it's stable. this is what the pros do, they use whatever works, and stay away from the bleeding edge for critical work. You buy Live 8 and complain about it's bugs, and I'll just think you haven't been using software for very long.

to answer your question, how in the hell do you prevent new users from buying whatever DAW decides not to follow through with 100% stable software and adds a fuck ton of new features??? Welcome to the pitfall of the free market. They all try to balance between the two from what I can tell, hence me saying the best real world advice I can give is to not be tied exclusively to one DAW.

Another 2 or perhaps 3 wrong assumptions about me - I use two DAWs, I probably come under pro-user segment by allmost any definition and Im not looking for advice (though naturally would welcome any thats new and actually useful)

I think I now understand your views and your place in this world - rather closed and accepting, little or no desire to move forwazrd - ie mr average.

On the last point - actually yes - your right - welcome to the lowest common denominator that we all have to live with - however should we just roll over and accept that?

[crumhorn]

The last few days have been fascinating really. Threads like "why buy live", "re: locked thread", the re-animated "CU" thread and now this one give a lot of insight into the personalities behind some of the user names. Some come across as reasonable and balanced, some argumentative but likeable, some with aspects of megalomania or delusions of grandeur, some paranoid conspiracy theorists and some rather unpleasant people who think that common standards of decency don't apply to them.

But in response to the OP

- People voted against banning, but because they think that it's wrong, not because they agree with crash, and I understand that completely.

I think you are over simplifying and making too many assumptions. I voted no for several reasons.

1. because I actually believe that Crash is a useful member of the forum. Sure he needs to learn to be more diplomatic and gets over obsessed about things, but I can live with that.

2. because when I see so much hate directed toward one person I automatically take against the haters.

3 because If we are to start censuring or censoring people there are plenty of others who commit worse sins

4. because I wanted to vote against you, personally, because something about you rubs me up the wrong way. I don't like people setting themselves up as spokesman, People who say "we" when they mean "I,.and think their opinion is so important and definitive that it deserves prominence over other posts in the same thread. (18 pt text indeed). You seem to be an archetypal rabble rouser and I always resist rabble rousers.

- Crash's fanclub is obviously a fraction of the size of the anti-crash fanclub, which was already obvious, according to activity in (many) other threads.

That is just childish. It's not about taking sides (well obviously it is for some people). Voting according to a your principles or supporting someone's right to be treated decently does not make you a member of a fan club, please grow up.

I could go on, but no one would take a blind bit of notice.

[ollyb303]

When are we going to stop this and start talking about music and software again?

Sure, this is mildly entertaining and gives some insight into the intelligence and attitudes of some of the users here, but really...

There have been way too many threads lately which have bugger all to do with Live/Music. I would welcome a wholesale return to the topic.

Timur has as much right to be here as anyone else. Everyone else has the right not to read his posts if they don't like them/don't want to or to use a script to avoid them completely if necessary.

That's it. I'm done with these threads.

[crumhorn]

^^^
Yeah, sorry, I get a bit carried away sometimes. I don't know why I allow myself to get drawn in - such a waste of time and energy. I'm going to try and steer clear of these types of threads from now on.

[3dot...]

Nah

[Machinesworking]

I think I now understand your views and your place in this world - rather closed and accepting, little or no desire to move forwazrd - ie mr average.

Do you really think anything you say will be took seriously by anybody you talk to that way?

You made this all about you, the subject is lost in your rhetoric and spiteful hate filled little jabs. The internet is filled with men like this, who waste everybody's time with their endless jabs aimed at nothing more that flame wars.
Do you want to be that man?

[last man on earth]

You made this all about you, the subject is lost in your rhetoric and spiteful hate filled little jabs. The internet is filled with men like this, who waste everybody's time with their endless jabs aimed at nothing more that flame wars.
Do you want to be that man?

That is exactly why I won't be responding to Cramhorn, but I think that I may use 18 point text in all my posts after this one

STARTING NOW.

[crumhorn]

You made this all about you, the subject is lost in your rhetoric and spiteful hate filled little jabs. The internet is filled with men like this, who waste everybody's time with their endless jabs aimed at nothing more that flame wars.
Do you want to be that man?

That is exactly why I won't be responding to Cramhorn, but I think that I may use 18 point text in all my posts after this one

STARTING NOW.

I think you just did respond, in a round about way.

Anyway feel free to ignore me I'm just a bit highly strung at the moment. if the cap fits, wear it, if not - sorry.

Just to let you know I feel no hate towards you whatsoever.