what do i do about audio clips that start before.....

NativeBreaks · Post by **NativeBreaks** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:36 am

what do i do about audio clips that start before the downbeat of a new scene? Some of my vocal tracks have sounds that start before a perfect down beat. And I'm trying to be able to do this in session view. I guess I could take the audio clip into arrangement view, select the clip and also select a few 16th's or 1/4 notes of empty space before it and hit conjoin. Then bring the clip back into session view, set it's start point to a perfect fraction, then set it's quantize to match the amount of silence in the beginning of the clip, and hopefully I hit play on the next scene at the right moment so the clip plays just a little bit early and on time. I'm currently forced to use at least 1-2 1/4 beats because I have to have perfect timing or the clip may start a 1/4 to early. This way, those little sounds of vocals or instruments that kick in before the clip start point does will not get chopped off while in session mode. Is there another work around? You think Live would have the ability to easily start the audio of a clip prior to the scene launch without going through all this trouble. As long as the early part of the clip wasn't longer than the global quantize the idea should work. It'd be easy if Live had a second "pre" start marker for clips in session view to hear a few milliseconds of audio to sound prior to the downbeat when a new clip/scene has been launched...

I think the clips start point needs an extra "pre" start point..

Does anyone catch my drift? Or does everyone have no problem at all with having all your recorded audio from vocals and instruments cut off anything before the downbeat?

twitterytom · Post by **twitterytom** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:59 am

i've had exactly the same problem. i was never sure if there is a solution to this that i don't know about or if live doesn't have this feature.

my solution is also to get the clip over to arrangement view and add say 3/4's of a bar of silence then consolidate and back.

its very common musically to have themes, melodies, vocals etc start pre-downbeat. strange live doesnt have an obvious way to do this.

NativeBreaks · Post by **NativeBreaks** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:01 pm

good to hear someone else's opinion.
maybe we could stir up Robert Henke about this one..

I will definitely buy Live 8 if this feature is included.

pip · Post by **pip** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:52 pm

My hack-job solution is to put a silent dummy clip before my sample, and adjust its Follow Action to start the sample in time. For example, let's say I have a vocal sample that starts 1 beat early; I make a silent dummy clip with a Follow Action of "play next" after 3 beats.

You can make an entire scene of dummy clips with follow actions to ensure that things start in sync with each other. Once again, depending on your layout, you might need to do some fancy routing to prevent audio from dropping out, but I promise you it IS possible.

This solution can cause complexities if your set already relies on follow actions, but I find it's easier to set up multiple clips this way instead of bouncing back and forth between session/arrangement to lengthen samples.

Hope that helps!
Rock the projects,
--PiP

glitchrock-buddha · Post by **glitchrock-buddha** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:40 pm

Lots of ways around this. Some have been pointed already - using a clip with silence for most of it where the sound comes in at the end and then follow actions to the another clip with the downbeat portion. I'd do that if I sometimes wanted to start the clip on the downbeat. Otherwise you can just have the clip start early and set the loop points later. That's why your start point and loop start can be different. Doing this you can also set your quantize differently for the clip that you want to start early so that you can trigger it before the downbeat.

twitterytom · Post by **twitterytom** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:11 pm

setting the clip start point earlier than the loop start point is not such a great option because the clips' downbeat isn't in sync with the global downbeat anymore. meaning you need quite a low quantization and trigger the clip just right.

the follow action idea seems reasonable. i'm assuming you need to turn the clips legato mode on?

NativeBreaks · Post by **NativeBreaks** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:13 pm

ok. thanx for the great tips. i still think ableton should add an extra pre-start point marker for clips that begin milliseconds before the down beat. Even so for my midi tracks. I avoid quantizing completely, but I always find myself quantizing the down beat so it slices properly and loops properly in session mode. It'd be great if slicing midi on a note would automatically create the pre-start point.
I need to be able to loop the scene several times without hearing the beginning of the "next clip" until just prior to its launch. I'll try to organize some dummy clips and see if i can arrange them in a functional way. Cubase has an anchor point for the start beat, and that helps a lot.

2 things i think Ableton should do:

1. Create anchor points for clips in the arrangement view so when they are dragged, the down beat will always remain on time regardless of the clip pre-start point. (Ableton's clip start point acts as the anchor point now)

2. Add a pre-start marker for clips in session view, at least a few milliseconds for those sounds that start just a little bit early.

It'd be a dream if we could drag clips from session to arrangement and keep all the "pre start points" "start points" and "loop points" intact.

Homebelly · Post by **Homebelly** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:22 pm

NativeBreaks wrote: 3 things i think Ableton should do:

1. Create anchor points for clips in the arrangement view so when they are dragged, the down beat will always remain on time regardless of the clip pre-start point. (Ableton's clip start point acts as the anchor point now)

2. Add a pre-start marker for clips in session view, at least a few milliseconds for those sounds that start just a little bit early.

3. Add a plugin that can scan the lotto winning numbers, then go back in time and buy that lottery ticket.

It'd be a dream if we could drag clips from session to arrangement and keep all the "pre start points" "start points" and "loop points" intact.

glitchrock-buddha · Post by **glitchrock-buddha** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:25 pm

NativeBreaks wrote:ok. thanx for the great tips. i still think ableton should add an extra pre-start point marker for clips that begin milliseconds before the down beat. Even so for my midi tracks. I avoid quantizing completely, but I always find myself quantizing the down beat so it slices properly and loops properly in session mode. It'd be great if slicing midi on a note would automatically create the pre-start point.
I need to be able to loop the scene several times without hearing the beginning of the "next clip" until just prior to its launch. I'll try to organize some dummy clips and see if i can arrange them in a functional way. Cubase has an anchor point for the start beat, and that helps a lot.

2 things i think Ableton should do:

1. Create anchor points for clips in the arrangement view so when they are dragged, the down beat will always remain on time regardless of the clip pre-start point. (Ableton's clip start point acts as the ancor point now)

2. Add a pre-start marker for clips in session view, at least a few milliseconds for those sounds that start just a little bit early.

Oh ok, I see what you're saying now. Sorry, I'm hungover. I thought you were talking more about loops that start like a sixteenth note early, or an eighth note etc.
But I see what you mean about recordings that start jst before the downbeat, and ya you have a good point, that's tricky.

And you make some good suggestions there to deal with it. Maybe worth posting in the feature request forum?

NativeBreaks · Post by **NativeBreaks** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:34 am

i know there's more ableton users out there who will extremely benefit from this feature...

maybe when a clip has a pre-start activated Live will have a small red marker in the corner of the clip in the session window.

Homebelly · Post by **Homebelly** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:04 pm

Live can already do what you are wanting it to do.
You just need to think about it differently.
Rather than expect live to be able to see into the future and anticipate what you want to do at any given point before you actually do it, why not go with what it can do?
If you want a clip in scene one to over lap the start of scene two then all you need to do is open the clip envelope properties,
de-select the linked button.
extend the end brace out for as many beats as you need.
move the start marker to the beginning of you extra time.
lower the volume for the extra time added at the end of the clip.
go back to sample box and de-select loop.
in session view make sure the stop button is removed from the clip slot in scene two beneath the clip you are working on scene one.

Now, when you fire scene one your clip will play a few beats of silence, and then play the actual clip as a one shot sample that should over lap when you fire scene two.

willrees · Post by **willrees** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:50 pm

I, too, need anchor points that are different than clip start. The suggestions above are too hacky to be reasonably used.

For instance, almost all strumming guitar playing is going to have a portion of strum that happens before the actual beat. So, does no one use guitar loops in Live?

timothyallan · Post by **timothyallan** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:14 am

Live 8 can start and end a clip before or after the actual audio starts/ends, you can just drag the 1.1.1 or end marker before the audio starts/ends

willrees · Post by **willrees** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:02 am

timothyallan wrote:Live 8 can start and end a clip before or after the actual audio starts/ends, you can just drag the 1.1.1 or end marker before the audio starts/ends

Would you expect this to work in Session mode?

The following did not work for me:

Start in Arrange Mode
Drag a an audio file onto an audio track
Turn on warp for the clip and assign warp markers to the beats
Turn on the metronome and play the clip in Arrange mode to make sure that it's warping in time.
Move the start time back by an eighth note (end time also moved back by an eighth note)
Keep Loop turned off for the clip
Drag the clip into the first slot of an audio track in Session Mode
Make sure the metronome is on
Press the play button for the clip

What I hear is that the clip is out of sync with the metronome by the amount that I moved the start time.

I tied this with Loop turned on and the Loop either set to the moved start and end times or set to the beat. Same result.

Am I missing something?

hacktheplanet · Post by **hacktheplanet** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:28 am

My workaround is making the extra long MIDI clip and/or follow action thing. I have a lot of clips that do this in my sets.
I agree it would be pretty cool if the Abes implemented a method to start a clip before it was triggered. Like, if the quantization was set at 1 bar, and you hit play on the clip in advance, it would play the clip with the lead-in notes and the rest normally... Did I explain that right?

what do i do about audio clips that start before.....

what do i do about audio clips that start before.....

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