[amo] snapping is not accurate

[peeddrroo]

i really, really, REALLY don't feel at ease with this new snapping behaviour.
i spend half of my time checking what length is the time range i just selected, or undoing duplicates cause the range was 2.0.0+ or 4.0.1 when i thought it was 2.0.0 or 4.0.0
PLEASE CHANGE THIS.
or allow an options.txt entry to revert to 7.0 behaviour
thanks

Hi,

Please be patient. We're working on it.

Regards,
Amaury

thanks, that's all i wanted to hear.

[peeddrroo]

ok, the new snapping behaviour is much better (b8)
2 remarks though:

- if you have a track with lots of chopped up clips and you click on it, the next time you click on another track, all the clips of the previous track will act as snap points. this is not very convenient.
- on the track with lots of chopped up clips, if you move a clip to another track (drag&drop), all the other little clips act as snap points, and therefore the purpose of "clip remains locked to timeline" isn't achieved.

[kenporter]

Personally, I still don't like because of the exact reasons you just stated. When selecting and moving several clips the snapping is still all over the place. Why can't snap to grid just snap to the grid? If you have a large session and want to move several clips around at the same time I want to be sure that the snapping is actually working and the clips snap to my selected grid. I feel very strongly about this since it completely destroys the way I work. Please make the new behavior an option only!

Thanks, Ken

[Amaury]

Hi,

This is not the end of the story. We're trying to avoid another option, and so it needs some tweaking and we need to try out a few things. Then we'll see.

For now: making a time selection or setting the insertion mark always snaps to the grid, or to the clips on the same track.
For moving clips, we still snap to other clips in other tracks, but we've tweaked it a bit so that the grid is preferred. Please try and see how hard or easy it is to move a clip onto the grid lines.

There is more we want to try to make it easier to "prefer the grid", but I'd like some feedback, in all honesty, for the current situation. Please try it.

Regards,
Amaury

[peeddrroo]

For now: making a time selection or setting the insertion mark always snaps to the grid, or to the clips on the same track.

well, this is not the case, as i explained in 1: if you click on a track with lots of tiny clips that are off the grid lines, then you can select a time range that's off the grid line on any other track.

For moving clips, we still snap to other clips in other tracks, but we've tweaked it a bit so that the grid is preferred. Please try and see how hard or easy it is to move a clip onto the grid lines.

once again, with a track that has a lot of tiny clips, you can move a clip to another track pretty much anywhere. it feels like there's no snapping at all.
it still makes moving clips inaccurate.

[Amaury]

For now: making a time selection or setting the insertion mark always snaps to the grid, or to the clips on the same track.

well, this is not the case, as i explained in 1: if you click on a track with lots of tiny clips that are off the grid lines, then you can select a time range that's off the grid line on any other track.

That's a bug, I'll report it now to the developer.

For moving clips, we still snap to other clips in other tracks, but we've tweaked it a bit so that the grid is preferred. Please try and see how hard or easy it is to move a clip onto the grid lines.

once again, with a track that has a lot of tiny clips, you can move a clip to another track pretty much anywhere. it feels like there's no snapping at all.
it still makes moving clips inaccurate.

Have you noticed what I described: the grid is "preferred". There is a threshold, so that if your x pixels from the grid, it will snap to the grid. Do you "feel" this threshold at all, or not?

Regards,
Amaury

[kenporter]

I had noticed what peeddrroo had noticed too, hence me saying that I still don't like the way it works. Plus when I select several clips across several tracks the snapping still snaps to any of the clips within that selection. In Live 7 if I wanted to select clips that were off the grid I could just press shift and click on that clip, so I don't really see why this new feature has been implemented into Live 8.

Also, I am usually zoomed out so that I can see my whole session. In Live 7 when moving things around I could always be sure that I was landing on a 1/1 grid if that's what I had selected or a finer grid if I had selected a finer grid. The way it works now, I can be 1/4 or 1/8, etc. measure off, and with it being zoomed out I won't see it until I play it back. Hence the threshold in my case doesn't make much of a difference.

Maybe peeddrroo and I aren't the majority but I am not really seeing any real world benefit in this newly implemented feature.

I understand that you don't want to add another option, but I'd say Snap to Grid and Fixed Grid and Snap to Clip options would not really be a huge change but would benefit those who actually prefer and use the snap to grid function all the time. As I have said in the beginning it's one of my favorite Live features and it speeds up my workflow tremendously!

I do however like the offset function when clips are copied that weren't on the grid.

Ken

[drakeyboy]

i have to agree, i do not like this feature at all.
Although i can see the logic that in some situations it could be useful if i want a finer snap i just zoom in. That is the kind of simplicity i love about live.
If you really wanted to implement this feature perhaps it could be an additional option that could be checked on/off in the contextual menu alongside the other snap preferences.

[drakeyboy]

well i didn't get it to start with but this makes a lot of sense.

'For now: making a time selection or setting the insertion mark always snaps to the grid, or to the clips on the same track.'


it actually works very well.

[kenporter]

well i didn't get it to start with but this makes a lot of sense.

'For now: making a time selection or setting the insertion mark always snaps to the grid, or to the clips on the same track.'


it actually works very well.

Unless you select and move a whole bunch of clips on separate tracks at the same time. It doesn't work well at all for me, and I always have to check if I am actually where I wanted to drop my clips in the timeline. It's a huge workflow killer for me, since double checking takes a lot more time and destroys my creativity. If Snap to Grid is selected I should be able to count on the fact that my clips will snap to my selected grid! Ableton wants to prevent adding more menu options, instead they rather convolute the functionality of a simple function. Imho make Snap to Clip an option in the Options menu. Personally, I don't really see any harm in that. As I said (coming from a guy who is a huge Ableton fan!) I feel really strongly about this!

Ken

PS: Btw, in 8.0b10 the clips snap to any clip edge not only on the same track.

[djod]

Why does my selection of different clips ( using shift click to select more then one) with different start and end points snap with the one first in time. why not the one i'm dragging? e.g. where my mouse pointer is. There is a click action on the clip I'm dragging thus live could know I want to snap using that particular clip start point.
If other clips are off grid then they stay off grid in relation to the one that's on grid.
The one on grid would be the one to grab using the mouse if you want to stay on grid.
If you want to go off grid with the selection, make it snap to an off grid clip in another track or select a off grid clip (you already had) in your selection and move the selection and snap it to the start of that off grid clip. If this would be implemented I would then also like to see a line rendered at the beginning of the clip (like it does now at the beginning of the selection) if its somewhere in the middle of the selection so you could visually see where the snapping is happening.

I hope this is clear and adds to the discussion.

[Amaury]

Hi,

Please hold a bit on the issue, there are many things going on here, and we're trying to cope with the bugfixing. We'll eventually find a good solution for all.

PS: Btw, in 8.0b10 the clips snap to any clip edge not only on the same track.

That was always the case. Snapping to clips on the same track is not an issue I think. It only comes in the picture when you want to "replace a clip with another one", or "resize a clip up to the beginning of the next one", and as I understand, that's not what annoys you the most.

For time selection, it's already be a few betas that both setting the insertion mark, and selecting time, only snaps to the grid, and to clip starts on the same track.

Why does my selection of different clips ( using shift click to select more then one) with different start and end points snap with the one first in time. why not the one i'm dragging? e.g. where my mouse pointer is. There is a click action on the clip I'm dragging thus live could know I want to snap using that particular clip start point.
If other clips are off grid then they stay off grid in relation to the one that's on grid.
The one on grid would be the one to grab using the mouse if you want to stay on grid.
If you want to go off grid with the selection, make it snap to an off grid clip in another track or select a off grid clip (you already had) in your selection and move the selection and snap it to the start of that off grid clip. If this would be implemented I would then also like to see a line rendered at the beginning of the clip (like it does now at the beginning of the selection) if its somewhere in the middle of the selection so you could visually see where the snapping is happening.

Only the beginning of the time selection (a multi-clip selection is a time selection) is considered, when moving that time selection. So, if the beginning of the time selection is OFF grid, that affset from the grid is also a snap point. Same as for MIDI notes: if you want to move a clip that is OFF grid to "one bar later", you can move it and retain its offset from the grid.

Regards,
Amaury

[djod]

Ok, sounds less convoluted, but does Live make the off grid starting point the preferred one? And how easy is it to make mistakes?

[Tarekith]

Just saying that this is REALLY frustrating me too I make a lot of drum edits/fills at the end of a measure, often using really small (1/64th) audio files. This means that any clips I try and drag to even bars later on are always slightly off. FWIW I'm not noticing that grid is more preferred.

[kenporter]

Just saying that this is REALLY frustrating me too I make a lot of drum edits/fills at the end of a measure, often using really small (1/64th) audio files. This means that any clips I try and drag to even bars later on are always slightly off. FWIW I'm not noticing that grid is more preferred.

Leave it Tarekith to explain in 4 sentences what I've been trying to explain all along.

Ken