Ableton Forum

This has been asked for before I am sure but I have to say it again. Live needs to have the ability to host vst's wile sending audio and midi to another host. As with ReWiew it would need to be done in real time, with an internal bit accurate sync and audio path.

Why?

Well it is simple. Mixing in a program like sequoia, or Pyramix is far more desirable.

I would love to boot up Pyramix and load my Live template only to have the two sync up in perfect harmony. All the flexibility of Live's sequencer, and the wonderful mixing and recording environment of Pyramix or Sequoia.

IMHO If Ableton where willing to do this they could focus more on the live performance of the program and leave the DAW multi-tracking duties to dedicated programs as mentioned. I feel that Ableton may be trying to please all the people all the time and that leads to a lot of compromise. Again I stress that this is my opinion. I am curious none the less to hear what others think.

Yeah somebody needs to update Rewire, problem is Propellerheads are fine with it the way it is it seems, but they needed to invent it in the first place considering Reason isn't an audio workstation. The thing is it's not an issue ATM for Ableton. Sure people want to mix in other hosts with crazy automation choices and great built in plugs etc. but if they bounce it all down to audio, it's not an issue.

Here's where it can be brought back into the live argument though, Kore takes forever to load as it's a host in it's own right, and in a live performance with Live it would be great to use it in some sort of super rewire, with the ability to host VSTs and AU's in both Kore and Live, thus shortening the load times between songs. This holds true with Logic's great built in plugs, or Fruity Loops, or any number of other hosts.

The company that comes up with a cross platform, non master/slave relationship audio and midi streaming protocol that requires little setup will be considered the new gods!

Machinesworking wrote:Sure people want to mix in other hosts with crazy automation choices and great built in plugs etc. but if they bounce it all down to audio, it's not an issue.

What I am getting at is the real time work flow. Not post production mixing. There is a massive advantage to having the mixer wile producing.

Also saying that people can simply bounce it down is not completely true, or least not exactly simple. If you are working with complex external hardware setups this process is tedious and time consuming. It is fine if you are an all in the box person. But not if you have a nice selection of outboard.

In the end the most important thing for me is that they are linked in real time.

Is max msp for live able to do this I wonder?

I have a system working like this in my studio. It's possible using an SSL/Soundscape 'Mixpander' DSP card. It features a fully configurable mixing environment with DSP powered plugs which accepts 64 24bit audio streams simultaneously from multiple programs in the Windows environment and 64 hardware sources (uses a PC as host).

Live sees all 64 streams as output destinations in the hardware configuration. I stream the audio in from individual Live channels and treat it like any other realtime audio source in the studio. I have each channel strip (receiving Live's outputs) configured with DSP powered comp/expander, 4band Soundscape EQ, 4band SSL Console EQ, 4band Algorythmix EACM1 EQ(API clone) & 6 outboard hardware FX sends. These channels in turn feed to the main stereo bus along with recorded audio from a Soundscape SS32 system and all live studio input sources (i.e. live mics, keyboards, guitars, vocals,drums). The Stereo Bus is loaded with another chain of EQs, 2 sets of multiband comps (TC & Acuma Labs).

It does it all in 'realtime' with no discernable latency just like feeding a huge hardware console. Yes, it sounds good and is an absolute joy to work with.

I've worked with a Soundscape/Mixpander for quite a few years now. It's a ultrastable, high definition, audio only system. I've found Live integrates with the Mixpander like nothing else I've tried. Sync to the Soundscape recorder is via MTC and locks instantly (leaving Live able to access VSTs)

Mixpander can run with any of SSL's Alphalink I/O units or Soundscape record systems. It's realtime handling of audio from a large number hardware & software sources makes it quite a unique piece of digital audio kit.

Totally agree with your sentiments Mike...

hey scaper777! Do you know of a system that is comparable in quality to the mixpander and alpha link that will work on a mac?

there was a discussion on the reaper forums about syncing up reaper with any other sequencer and route both audio and midi. using this method you could (yep, i tried it myself) route audio and midi to reaper while still beeing able to use thirdparty plugins in both application (in this case, live and reaper), using the rearoute utility. only thing thats a bit fiddly is to set it up properly the first time and to get the midi to sync properly, but with some delay compensation and fiddling about it can sync up perfectly.
still a hassle everytime you want to work this way, unless you make a batchscript or something similar that opens up the program in the right order with the rigth templates and whatnots, but it did work though.

i skipped the setup though, because it makes more sense to me to work in the same enviroment all the time.
but check the reaper forums, i think its a sticky even.

scaper777 wrote:I have a system working like this in my studio. It's possible using an SSL/Soundscape 'Mixpander' DSP card. It features a fully configurable mixing environment with DSP powered plugs which accepts 64 24bit audio streams simultaneously from multiple programs in the Windows environment and 64 hardware sources (uses a PC as host).

Live sees all 64 streams as output destinations in the hardware configuration. I stream the audio in from individual Live channels and treat it like any other realtime audio source in the studio. I have each channel strip (receiving Live's outputs) configured with DSP powered comp/expander, 4band Soundscape EQ, 4band SSL Console EQ, 4band Algorythmix EACM1 EQ(API clone) & 6 outboard hardware FX sends. These channels in turn feed to the main stereo bus along with recorded audio from a Soundscape SS32 system and all live studio input sources (i.e. live mics, keyboards, guitars, vocals,drums). The Stereo Bus is loaded with another chain of EQs, 2 sets of multiband comps (TC & Acuma Labs).

It does it all in 'realtime' with no discernable latency just like feeding a huge hardware console. Yes, it sounds good and is an absolute joy to work with.

I've worked with a Soundscape/Mixpander for quite a few years now. It's a ultrastable, high definition, audio only system. I've found Live integrates with the Mixpander like nothing else I've tried. Sync to the Soundscape recorder is via MTC and locks instantly (leaving Live able to access VSTs)

Mixpander can run with any of SSL's Alphalink I/O units or Soundscape record systems. It's realtime handling of audio from a large number hardware & software sources makes it quite a unique piece of digital audio kit.

Totally agree with your sentiments Mike...

I work with Sonic Core Scope in the same way. I am glad that you see my point scaper. I was beginning to feel alone on this one.

Don't know of a MAC equivalent for Mixpander. SSL's MADIxtreme may develop into such a thing having provision to accomodate multiple DSP chips. Currently it's MAC/PC compatible 64/128 MADI I/O card. Would be interested to hear from MAC users who might know of a MAC equivalent.

Mike... not on your own there... I suspect there are a few others out there who have discovered the advantages of working on systems like this as a practical and preferable alternative to mixing out through a large console. Clean mix bus summing, access to OB gear, no latency ... I could go on .....

Mike... have had a look at your Scope system online... looks good. I'm curious about the stability... how is it for you? A friend used to run an older Creamware system but used to get the occasional BSOD, usually in the middle of a session.. New system looks good though ... no shortage of DSP ... Looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger on a PCIe card!

I find it a little buggy. It can be a bitch to install as well, missing files and so on. This being said I have never had a BSOD in the middle of a session. I am a pretty intense user, constantly switching from scope session to another back and forth comparing mixes and so on. Turning on and off 40 ASIO channels, full digital mixer setups with fx, say 10 times in a 5 hour sess some times with no BSOD. There are little things that drive me nuts. For example if I leave my session and leave it over night scope is always frozen. Music will play and all is fine but the interface is dead. I am getting other BSOD's these days but I don't think that is has to do with Scope. Over all it is a good system and has a fantastic support community. Sonic Core are also very quick to get back to me with my problems. It is a pro system.

Have to say the Soundscape/Mixpander setup is extrememely stable. It will go six months without a freeze up (working just about every day). When it does fall over it's always an external issue like physical connectors, malfunctioning drives or a dodgy VST plug. I know of a guy who has a system installed on a PC with nothing else onboard (no internet, no sequencer, no nothing)... claims he hasn't had a crash in 15 years.

Nice feeling, starting a days recording knowing it's going to be all about music and recording, not about unscheduled interruptions and reboots. I don't know how I'd go running sessions on a system that freezes up on a daily basis.

Surprised .. all that DSP power on the Scope system and it still falls over? Seems like there's not many contenders around that really provide a stable, DSP powered, realtime mix environment.

I've heard allot of great things about The Metric Halo ULN-2, it's very similar to the Soundscape/Mixpander but it also runs on a Mac! It has it's own dedicated mixer and DSP and a slew of really nice plugs, plus it has Eucon support! check it out and lemme know what you all think. I'm planning on picking one up sometime this year. http://www.mhlabs.com/metric_halo/

a little bird has told me ... keep an eye out on SSL's website in the next week or two for some news ... that's all I can say at the moment.

Information just being released during the course of Musikmesse ... Powerful new SSL Soundscape realtime mix card with SSL bus compressor, EQ's and channel dynamics ... in the box SSL mixing with 4 samples latency ... 128 MADI I/Os + 128 stream inputs from multiple PC audio apps.

Info on MX4 PCIe card... V6 mixer screenshot...
http://soundtechuk.blogspot.com/2009/04 ... messe.html

I suspect this might seriously challenge accepted 'industry standard' HD systems.

Yes, this card appears to be MAC & PC compatible ...