dithering via plugins within Live

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mholloway
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dithering via plugins within Live

Post by mholloway » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:21 pm

nobody is answering this in the General forum so i'm x-posting here...

I'm confused about the order of events when you're doing a final mixdown in Live, using plugins for mastering on the master channel. specifically about where/when dithering is being done, and by which program....

lets say you load up your new mixdown, stick a limiter plugin on the master channel, and this plugin has it's own dithering options, as many of them do. if you turn them on, say to dither to 16bit in some fashion as this master will be your final mix, what happens when you hit "render" in live and the options menu appears with live's own dither/bit options?? -- e.g. you can select "no dither" but you have to select how many bits you render to, and if its 16 then it wants to know your dither choice, but then we're back to not wanting live to do dithering because the plugin will do it.......

obviously I'm confused. somebody please explain? thanks...
my industrial music made with Ableton Live (as DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER): https://deadwhenifoundher.bandcamp.com/
my dark jazz / noir music made with Ableton Live: https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp. ... guilt-noir

laird
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Post by laird » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:16 pm

dither last, only once, when you bounce down to 16bit.

Simple.

Adding dithering plugins... i think you are making things too complicated for yourself. Are you dissatified with how Live's dither sounds? If not, then turn off the dither on the mastering plugin.

infiniteB
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Post by infiniteB » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:20 pm

laird wrote:dither last, only once, when you bounce down to 16bit.

Simple.

Adding dithering plugins... i think you are making things too complicated for yourself. Are you dissatified with how Live's dither sounds? If not, then turn off the dither on the mastering plugin.
I completely agree... so if you have a plugin that is not JUST a dithering plugin (ex: Izotope Ozone Mastering Suite, etc), be sure to make sure you either dither with ONLY Ableton Live or your plugin, never twice... Sometimes "dithering" is a hidden / not obvious preference in a plugin. Personally, I think Ableton's algorithms are just fine.
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myxomat0515
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Post by myxomat0515 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:14 am

Out of curiousity...

What would be the effect on a track if it were dithered twice, like by Ozone and Live, both set to 16-bit?

mholloway
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Post by mholloway » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:47 am

laird wrote: Adding dithering plugins... i think you are making things too complicated for yourself. Are you dissatified with how Live's dither sounds? If not, then turn off the dither on the mastering plugin.
I'm fine with ableton's dithering. I was asking simply because various mastering plugins, notably limiters, have their own dithering. so yes, I'll just turn it off and use live's. though I'm still curious about how such events get processed when you have multiple parts of the chain that can do the conversation, e.g. the limiter can dither to 16 bit but so can live; if the audio passes through the limiter and gets dithered, then is anything actually happening when the live render settings get reached, where it once again is told to render to 16 bit?

again, at this point it's just a mostly superfleous question, just trying to sort out the order of processes in my brain when this sort of conflict exists. but in any case for my mixes I'll just use live's dithering option.

-M
my industrial music made with Ableton Live (as DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER): https://deadwhenifoundher.bandcamp.com/
my dark jazz / noir music made with Ableton Live: https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp. ... guilt-noir

mholloway
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Post by mholloway » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:48 am

laird wrote: Adding dithering plugins... i think you are making things too complicated for yourself. Are you dissatified with how Live's dither sounds? If not, then turn off the dither on the mastering plugin.
I'm fine with ableton's dithering. I was asking simply because various mastering plugins, notably limiters, have their own dithering. so yes, I'll just turn it off and use live's. though I'm still curious about how such events get processed when you have multiple parts of the chain that can do the conversation, e.g. the limiter can dither to 16 bit but so can live; if the audio passes through the limiter and gets dithered, then is anything actually happening when the live render settings get reached, where it once again is told to render to 16 bit?

again, at this point it's just a mostly superfleous question, just trying to sort out the order of processes in my brain when this sort of conflict exists. but in any case for my mixes I'll just use live's dithering option.

-M
my industrial music made with Ableton Live (as DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER): https://deadwhenifoundher.bandcamp.com/
my dark jazz / noir music made with Ableton Live: https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp. ... guilt-noir

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:50 am

Usually it just shuts down your computer without warning.


Just kidding.

It's not the dithering that's bad so much, in fact most digital processors dither when they change wordlenghts, it's just good DSP programming. It's the noiseshaping of that dither than should never be done more than once, and in the case of Live's Triangular and POW-r dither, you can't control noiseshaping seperate from dither. What will happen if done twice? Likely not much that most people will notice, but it can add more noise than is needed, do it more than a few times, and you'll begin to hear the audio get grainy and not so good sounding.

mholloway
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Post by mholloway » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:52 am

laird wrote:dither last, only once, when you bounce down to 16bit.

Simple.

Adding dithering plugins... i think you are making things too complicated for yourself. Are you dissatified with how Live's dither sounds? If not, then turn off the dither on the mastering plugin.
btw, are you the Laird from PDX who once was half of ThineEyes/Mluh ? I'm guessing so, since how many portland lairds using ableton can there be =). If so, just thought'd I'd say hi, I'm michael, also from Portland, formerly had a project called Pet of the Future with which I had a few primitive tracks (back during my teen years, jeebus...) alongside some Thine Eyes stuff on random comp CDs that you may or may not want to remember. still doing tunes, then??
my industrial music made with Ableton Live (as DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER): https://deadwhenifoundher.bandcamp.com/
my dark jazz / noir music made with Ableton Live: https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp. ... guilt-noir

Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:52 am

Usually it just shuts down your computer without warning.


Just kidding.

It's not the dithering that's bad so much, in fact most digital processors dither when they change wordlenghts, it's just good DSP programming. It's the noiseshaping of that dither than should never be done more than once, and in the case of Live's Triangular and POW-r dither, you can't control noiseshaping seperate from dither. What will happen if done twice? Likely not much that most people will notice, but it can add more noise than is needed, do it more than a few times, and you'll begin to hear the audio get grainy and not so good sounding.

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