Ableton Forum

I like to do mixes in ableton in a jammed out style where I am automating everything in one pass. This usually means that before I mix the track I need to sit down and assign midi controls to all of the ableton controls I plan to use for the mix. The problem is that on each track I want to control at the very least: mute/solo,volume,pan, eq, aux sends in addition to whatever synthesis or fx parameters are there.

Right now there is no midi controller available (that I know of) that has a work surface with dedicated controls that facilitates this. What I am looking for is something like a Mackie 1604 or A&H Mixwizard that is a midi controller.

The only thing remotely close is the Korg Zero8 but you only get 8 channels and it has a poor reputation for durability. It is also twice the cost of buying a used Mackie 1604!

A 1604 is filled with analog circuity in addition to all of it's UI panel stuff. The internal electronics for a midi controller version of a 1604 would actually be cheaper!

The only option it seems is to DIY via midibox hardware (build something like a monodeck). This is very time consuming and actually pretty expensive in parts and machining costs.

Any ideas?

I am pretty much guessing the best solution is to use an analog mixer and a soundcard with lot's of i/o.

with this you get a 16 channel mixer emulation inc. 3 sends/efx/whatever per channel.
no fader though.


here's a fader solution


and another


THIS one i had my eyes on for a long time, but their so rare and hard to get...
Hades VMC-207

not even remotely close to what I am talking about :p

I am well aware of the tons of severely limited and small midi controllers out there. A single fader and a couple of knob per channel is NOT equivalent to something like a Mackie 1604 (which is considered to be a super basic and tiny mixer) which has:

fader
mute button
solo button
pan
EQ low
EQ Q
EQ freq
EQ hi
Aux 1
Aux 2
Aux 3
Aux 4
Gain

on EACH channel. That is waaaaaaaay more dedicated control.

I was severely disapointed when I saw the APC40. Anyone who uses one channel at a time (i.e. the encoders only show the track controls for one track at a time) is probably playing a pretty boring live set!!! If I am playing live I am using all 10 fingers and sometimes feet to control as many different things as possible. The only way to do this is with dedicated controls (knobs, buttons switches and faders). Never should I be clicking through a menu or using key comobos.... everything I need should be immediately there just like any instrument.

A monodeck would be cool...maybe Akai and ableton will do that next.

I was actually thinking of buying one of those Behringer mixers that rips off mackie and then gutting it to use it as the enclosure for a midi controller based on www.ucapps.de stuff.

intellijel wrote: fader
mute button
solo button
pan
EQ low
EQ Q
EQ freq
EQ hi
Aux 1
Aux 2
Aux 3
Aux 4
Gain

on EACH channel.

ok, but the hades exactly does this (when not for all channels simultanously). read the specs man.

ok, but the hades exactly does this (when not for all channels simultanously). read the specs man.

read MY post. Having the dedicated controls is of utmost importance. You should be able to play with the aux send of one channel while doing eq sweeps on another and instantly be able to grab them without looking at a screen. Imagine a guitar player had to access frets or volume control by going through menus.

Manufacturers (and live performers) are kidding themselves if they don't think they need this ability.

wow that hades is a beautiful piece of kit, that whole thing is midi?
I have never seen it before.

Well, if I'm not mistaken Pitch Black use two Doepfer Drehbanks the way you want to use your dream controller. They control at least sends, EQ and volumes on each 16 channels. Unfortunately they are not manufactured anymore.

madhattared wrote:wow that hades is a beautiful piece of kit, that whole thing is midi?
I have never seen it before.

yep, i also really like to own one but since the company isn't anymore this would get hard.
i guess they were never really recognized...

maybe an idea for a midibox project?

intellijel wrote:

ok, but the hades exactly does this (when not for all channels simultanously). read the specs man.

read MY post. Having the dedicated controls is of utmost importance. You should be able to play with the aux send of one channel while doing eq sweeps on another and instantly be able to grab them without looking at a screen. Imagine a guitar player had to access frets or volume control by going through menus.

Manufacturers (and live performers) are kidding themselves if they don't think they need this ability.

You know, not everyone wants to make music in the same way as you. Calm down.

Have you seen this one:



I feel your pain- the best solution IMO is to either build your own or frankenstein 2 or three controllers together. For instance, a BCF 2OOO + a Drehbank + a Padkontrol is a pretty complete setup.

yeah I have seen the Bitstream, I think Autechre use it as part of their live rig. Still it has no mute/solos and is only 8 channels.

Yes I can build my own and will but I am just surprised that such a basic product does not already exist.

intellijel wrote:yeah I have seen the Bitstream, I think Autechre use it as part of their live rig. Still it has no mute/solos and is only 8 channels.

Yes I can build my own and will but I am just surprised that such a basic product does not already exist.

looks like you may have found your calling, and a possible gold mine, so: Run, Forrest, run!

i did have the Bitstream for some time. (it has 8 mute knobs on the right side)
but i let down due to the lack of endless encoders and the "mediocre" build quality.

i hear you about a classic mixer portation to the midi world. the only solutions
are either combine existing controller surfaces or build some on your own.

some finds on the midibox site:











so, get your soldering iron on

intellijel wrote: I am just surprised that such a basic product does not already exist.

You & me both intellijel. Year after year, & it still doesn't exist. There are a few things that get close, but nothing really matches the feature set of even a small format analog audio mixer.

I am using 2 Dopfer Drehbanks, a Faderfox LX1, & 2 Dopfer Pocket Dials in various combinations in an attempt to get total hands on control.

I also have a Faderfox LD2, but it crashes Live 99% of the time I use it! Completely unstable & I don't know why -it must be broken because I haven't heard anyone else having the same problem. And yes, I have contacted everyone who could possibly help: Faderfox were great; Ableton tech support just gave up after a while & disappeared... I'll probably have to buy a new LD2 or check out the APC 40. I want to try some BCR2000s sometime too.

There are the Mawzer modular midi controller systems, but ridiculously over priced in my opinion, & probably not really available anywhere.

The build your own solution is probably the best bet, though daunting to say the least!

1. Mortgage your house.

2. Buy this: http://www.euphonix.com/pro/music/system_5-mc/

3. Run under Mackie emulation, or wait until Max for Live is released and write a Max patch to use Eucon protocol in Live.