OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
starving student
Posts: 7129
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:13 pm
Location: right here

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by starving student » Thu May 07, 2009 11:47 pm

Android Bishop wrote:
scott nathaniel wrote: What's wrong with this is that racism and the deleterious effects are long lasting. The privileges aloted to families of fortune is far more outrageous to me than affirmative action. The disparity between jail term for blacks vs, white is far more outrageous to me than a few kids getting into some thirdrate Cal State program. I think that in little as 40 years ago blacks were segregated and not allowed in white schools merits them being allowed extra privileges for at least a century. My 2 bits
1) The privledges of families of fortune aren't allotted, they are developed by the families themselves through their actions. They exist because those families built up their resources and influence over generations. Society isn't just up and decide "hey you know what? Lets make the Henderson's the most wealthy and influential family in America." They got there via their own initiative. And they have the right to pass that down to their heirs, the same as you would if you spent your life building a fortune to leave to your own children.

2) Nobody is arguing that there are disparities. However, the legal structure is in place for any person of any color or background to make something of themselves based on their initiative in this country. By giving arbitrary incentives and reparations, you are only adding to the problem by adding yet another institution that creates a divide based on race. Once you have that in place, it is difficult to get rid of and therefore exacerbates the problem even longer.

3)If you want to fix these disparities, you have to create support structures that focus on people's economic situation and not race. The reason why black people make up a majority of the prison population is due to many factors (and yes one is racism), but the biggest one is because they are poor and thus more likely to commit crimes and less likely to be able to afford good attorneys. I've been through the legal system. Believe me, most of the black people in prison are, in fact, criminals. The reason why I got out quick isn't because I'm white, it was because I had enough money to get myself a kick ass attorney. By providing support based on economic factors, rather than racial ones, you are targeting the ROOT of the problem and eliminating an institutional race barrier in the process.
so do you believe the roots of economic disparity between blacks and whites is not based in race?
because it seems like you're basing everything on economic roots, I don't know where you are from but coming from a place where black people themselves were held as property, economic capital there is some irony there.

starving student
Posts: 7129
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:13 pm
Location: right here

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by starving student » Thu May 07, 2009 11:49 pm

Android Bishop wrote:
starving student wrote:
I agree but what about crimes where the gist of the crime is racial discrimination, for instance it is not a crime to not give someone a job, but it is a crime to not give someone a job based on the color of their skin, is it your opinion that people should not be descriminated against based on race based legislation but that they should be allowed to be discriminated against based on racial discrimination?
your question line there is really hard to understand when I'm stoned. Can you please explain further what you are asking me? I dont want to type out an answer if I completely miss the point of the question.
sure, I'm asking how you can take race out of the factor of a crime where the crime is racial descrimination.

Android Bishop
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:03 am

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Android Bishop » Thu May 07, 2009 11:55 pm

starving student wrote:
so do you believe the roots of economic disparity between blacks and whites is not based in race?
because it seems like you're basing everything on economic roots, I don't know where you are from but coming from a place where black people themselves were held as property, economic capital there is some irony there.
You cant go back in time and make that not have happened. The point is, we are where we are right now. And right now, in a place in time where slavery is not legal and neither is race based discrimination, it is a foolish thing to continue to create institutions (legal or otherwise) that creates race divides. Even if it is positive for that target, because positive effects only serve to create incentive to keep that institution in place indefinitely. In fact, once in place, many people will consider racist to TAKE IT AWAY even if it is, by very definition, a racist institution.

LoopStationZebra
Posts: 10586
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:57 pm
Contact:

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by LoopStationZebra » Thu May 07, 2009 11:58 pm

starving student wrote:
LoopStationZebra wrote:"The new phone book's here! The new phone book's here!"
that was your 666 post..............hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :mrgreen:

Holy Crap. You're right! 8O
I came for the :lol:
But stayed for the :x

Android Bishop
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:03 am

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Android Bishop » Thu May 07, 2009 11:59 pm

starving student wrote:
sure, I'm asking how you can take race out of the factor of a crime where the crime is racial descrimination.
You would have to prove, via evidence (recording or email or something like) that race discrimination, period, happened. It doesnt matter what race was targeted, it just matters that somebody said "we dont hire X's at this company!".

Tone Deft
Posts: 24152
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Tone Deft » Fri May 08, 2009 12:01 am

Bishop - should US grade schools be allowed to choose whether they teach in English or Spanish?
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

Android Bishop
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:03 am

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Android Bishop » Fri May 08, 2009 12:04 am

Tone Deft wrote:Bishop - should US grade schools be allowed to choose whether they teach in English or Spanish?
Public schools? Wouldn't that be up to the taxpayers who fund said school?

Otherwise at private institutions I'm pretty sure they can teach in whatever language they want.

You get what you pay for.
And I'm pretty sure they have spanish speaking classes in public schools.

starving student
Posts: 7129
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:13 pm
Location: right here

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by starving student » Fri May 08, 2009 12:05 am

Android Bishop wrote:
starving student wrote:
so do you believe the roots of economic disparity between blacks and whites is not based in race?
because it seems like you're basing everything on economic roots, I don't know where you are from but coming from a place where black people themselves were held as property, economic capital there is some irony there.
You cant go back in time and make that not have happened. The point is, we are where we are right now. And right now, in a place in time where slavery is not legal and neither is race based discrimination, it is a foolish thing to continue to create institutions (legal or otherwise) that creates race divides. Even if it is positive for that target, because positive effects only serve to create incentive to keep that institution in place indefinitely. In fact, once in place, many people will consider racist to TAKE IT AWAY even if it is, by very definition, a racist institution.
I would completely agree with you if the case was that slavery was an isolated incident within itself, but it's not. I think that you and I both agree that crime is crime right, ok but what happens if a drunk driver hits you and you develop an illness because of that, do you believe that the drunk driver should replace your automobile but not your induced medical charges? what happens if you need physical therapy, what happens if you are paralized where does the drunk drivers repsonsibility end in your opinion?

but I'm not even debating the issue of slavery because I don't think you need to go back to slavery, the government says that racial descrimination is having a severe effect on people in the us. one example is the unemployment rate of black men in newyork, how would you go about doing something about this without using race as a factor?

starving student
Posts: 7129
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:13 pm
Location: right here

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by starving student » Fri May 08, 2009 12:10 am

Android Bishop wrote:
starving student wrote:
sure, I'm asking how you can take race out of the factor of a crime where the crime is racial descrimination.
You would have to prove, via evidence (recording or email or something like) that race discrimination, period, happened. It doesnt matter what race was targeted, it just matters that somebody said "we dont hire X's at this company!".
well that is how it's done today isn't it, like with denys restaurant, or the indy 500 case recently so I'm not sure what you don't like about the legislation currently cause it works as you've described.

are you saying you don't like any special circumstances like say killing a policman or raping, or killing a child should not be special circumstances or is it just 'racialy motivated' that you believe should not be a special circumstance?

scott nathaniel
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:52 pm

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by scott nathaniel » Fri May 08, 2009 12:12 am

Android Bishop wrote:
3)If you want to fix these disparities, you have to create support structures that focus on people's economic situation and not race. The reason why black people make up a majority of the prison population is due to many factors (and yes one is racism), but the biggest one is because they are poor and thus more likely to commit crimes and less likely to be able to afford good attorneys. I've been through the legal system. Believe me, most of the black people in prison are, in fact, criminals. The reason why I got out quick isn't because I'm white, it was because I had enough money to get myself a kick ass attorney. By providing support based on economic factors, rather than racial ones, you are targeting the ROOT of the problem and eliminating an institutional race barrier in the process.
Poor people are not more likely to commit crimes, that's just not a fact. They maybe more likely to commit crimes against property, but it's hard to qualify ignorant statements like these
The reason why black people make up a majority of the prison population is due to many factors (and yes one is racism), but the biggest one is because they are poor and thus more likely to commit crimes and less likely to be able to afford good attorneys. I've been through the legal system
because you committed a crime, you're white, and you got off because you're a privileged fuck whom had a good attorney. Now where do you, as a statistics figure into your numbers. You don't because you won't be included in the statistics, Therefore, your numbers are skewered because white guys like you are getting off, making it seem as if only poor black people are committing crimes

Tone Deft
Posts: 24152
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Tone Deft » Fri May 08, 2009 12:21 am

Android Bishop wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:Bishop - should US grade schools be allowed to choose whether they teach in English or Spanish?
Public schools? Wouldn't that be up to the taxpayers who fund said school?

Otherwise at private institutions I'm pretty sure they can teach in whatever language they want.

You get what you pay for.
And I'm pretty sure they have spanish speaking classes in public schools.
sorry, though I remember you having some pretty strong views towards Latino immigrants, being in So Cal (IIRC) I thought they were interesting.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

starving student
Posts: 7129
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:13 pm
Location: right here

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by starving student » Fri May 08, 2009 12:22 am

c'mon scott be easy man I know you feel passionate about all of this cause we all do but we shouldn't get into calling each other names and stuff, we should try to talk these things out if we can.

Tone Deft
Posts: 24152
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Tone Deft » Fri May 08, 2009 12:23 am

starving student wrote:c'mon scott be easy man I know you feel passionate about all of this cause we all do but we shouldn't get into calling each other names and stuff, we should try to talk these things out if we can.
dipshit, that's why you don't start these retarded purposely controversial OT threads.

see? I called you dipshit!!
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

scott nathaniel
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:52 pm

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by scott nathaniel » Fri May 08, 2009 12:25 am

starving student wrote:c'mon scott be easy man I know you feel passionate about all of this cause we all do but we shouldn't get into calling each other names and stuff, we should try to talk these things out if we can.
I have no qualms with name calling, asshole :lol:

starving student
Posts: 7129
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:13 pm
Location: right here

Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by starving student » Fri May 08, 2009 12:29 am

scott nathaniel wrote:
starving student wrote:c'mon scott be easy man I know you feel passionate about all of this cause we all do but we shouldn't get into calling each other names and stuff, we should try to talk these things out if we can.
I have no qualms with name calling, asshole :lol:
well now isn't that obvious but i'm just sayinnnnnn just in case :mrgreen:

Post Reply