Ableton Forum

Hi All,

I just got my APC 40 and am drooling over it, as expected, but now I am stuck with a dilemma. Like all those other devices, the APC needs a USB port. Recently my Imac has been failing to start up (before I installed the APC), and I have isolated it to peripheral devices. I don't think any single device is running defective software, so I am looking for help. This is like a GRE logic problem, but I don't know the underlying rules. On my 2.8G iMac I have 1 Firewire 800 port, 1 Firewire 400 port, 3 USB 2.0 ports (in the back), and 2 USB ports on the keyboard (I think these are 2.0 but they may be 1.0). I have the following that need to be plugged in to these 7 ports:

USB -- APC40
USB -- Axiom 61
USB -- PodXT
USB -- Korg Nano Pad
USB -- Glyph Porta Gig (5400 speed-not used for audio)
USB -- Waves iLok key (this must plug into the computer)
USB -- Western Digital 500 Gig drive for Time Machine backups
USB-- Know-Brainer noise-canceling headphones for MacSpeech Dictate
USB -- Ipod Interface cable #1
USB -- Ipod Interface cable #2 (for convenience )
USB -- Ipod Shuffle Interface cable (must have power and is very picky about ports)
USB -- Open slot for jump drive access
Firewire 400 -- Presonus Firebox audio interface
Firewire 800 -- Glyph 050Q 500Gig for audio use (transportable to another studio)

I have two USB hubs, one Belkin 7-port powered hub and one Targus 4-port powered hub, giving me a total of 17 USB inputs I can try to plug things into, minus whatever the hubs need. Currently the 4-port hub is plugged into the 7-port hub, which plugs into the iMac. No firewire devices are daisy-chained; the Firebox and the 050Q both plug directly into the iMac. All items that have power supplies are using them, not bus power.

Here are the rules I think I know:

1) Complicated bidirectional devices (like the APC) should be plugged directly into the computer
2) Some devices need to be plugged directly into the computer; some just say they do. For example, not plugging the iLok key directly into the computer will cause it to crash every time.

My questions:

1) Is there any logic for what gets plugged directly into the iMac?
2) Is there any problem with using two hubs, and can one plug into the other?
3) Are there reliable rules for managing this many USB devices?
4) Is this an unusually large number of devices to plug into one computer? It seems like a normal-sized rig to me for a home studio, short of a mac pro system.
5) Is this all a matter of trial and error?

Thanks for any thoughts,

--Adam

hill56871 wrote: My questions:

1) Is there any logic for what gets plugged directly into the iMac?

I don't know about iMacs, but here's info that may pertain -you'll have to dig a bit deeper to see if your iMac is similar.


On the 15" MacBook Pros, there are 2 USB ports. The right USB port has an internal hub and is shared with the keyboard, iSight, and trackpad.

The left USB port also has an internal hub, but it's only shared with the Bluetooth module.

So ideally, you might want to turn off your Bluetooth and use the left USB port for control devices.

Which works out OK, because some people say the left USB port doesn't always provide enough power for small bus-powered USB drives.

Good luck! And post any resources that you discover. Thanks

Yeah, I agree it is worthwhile to try to understand the internal architecture of my USB busses. Often tech support people don't know this, but asking a few and dividing by 3 might work. I don't know how to access this directly within my own iMac.

Thanks for the tip. BTW, I'm reposting this request in Bugs and Problems. The General list seems to move to fast for things to get a good reading for discussion.

Again, thanks,

--Adam

hill56871 wrote:Yeah, I agree it is worthwhile to try to understand the internal architecture of my USB busses. I don't know how to access this directly within my own iMac.

Use System Profiler -you access it in the menu bar by clicking on the Apple icon (furthest left in menu bar), & selecting About This Mac. Once the little window opens up, click on the More Info button. Next open the hardware list by clicking on the little triangle next to the word hardware. Now click on USB -now you can see what is being shared with each USB port.

I would have told you this yesterday, but I just checked it out & saw that System Profiler does indeed display this info.

you iLok should plug directly into any USB port. Have you got the latest drivers for it?
I have mine plugged into a huba nd it woks fine. i am running loads of software from it. I also have a synchrosoft dongle plugged into a port.

Bar the APC everything else on there should be fine on a hub. would have thought that the apc would be alright too, I don't have one though. Perhaps keep it away from the other stuff that is transfering a lot of data, i.e. drives. . .

i am also in USB hell. why do computers only have 2 when you need 50?

iLoks and Syncrosoft dongles work just as they should if plugged into Hubs rather than into the computer directly.

I've got two powered 7-port USB hubs connected to my computer and it starts a little slow because of USB devices but once it's up and running, everything is fine.

Here's what I have plugged into the 2 hubs which are plugged into a PCI usb card instead of the mobo directly...
Akai APC40
Korg pK
Novation Xio
Evolution X-Session UC-17
NI Maschine
NI Kore 2
iLok
Syncrosoft Dongle
Lexicon MX400
and 5 empty spaces for whatever else I need to plug in at any given moment.

Into the computer mobo directly..
WD Ext. USB Hard Drive for back up
WD eSata Hard Drive for MP3s
USB Keyboard
USB Mouse

also using RME HDSPe PCIe card and Multiface 2 so that frees up USB and firewire slots.

only have one firewire device (Korg Zero4) but it won't run on my Vista 64 computer... thank you Korg, jerk-offs! so i can only use it with my laptop, which by the way, runs fine using the mini firewire port on my HP laptop. i also have 2 Numark iCDXs plugged into a 4-port hub and a small 160 GB external laptop hard drive plugged into the laptop.

I think when people have problems with hubs, it's because the equipment they are using is probably bus-powered and they aren't using powered hubs. if you can, get powered hubs or see if your device can accept a power supply and use that instead of relying on usb power.

On topic I think here...

Are all USB hubs pretty much the same or are there any that are really 'well built' and more reliable?

I have had some cheapo ones that I had problems with.

Cant really go wrong with the main manufacturers.

At the moment I am rocking a sweex one however (no i havent heard of them either) and it's working fine. . .

continuous wrote:On topic I think here...

Are all USB hubs pretty much the same or are there any that are really 'well built' and more reliable?

Mileage may vary...

You guys are real confident in the amount of devices *AND* USB ports that you're adding to your computers. That's great, but if your power supply can't handle dividing up all that power among all those devices you can start to expect errors. Also if the power supply is fluctuating too much that pop that you hear when it goes may spread to your motherboard.

If it were me... and it is cause I have USB devices too. I would use what you need when you need it and leave the rest in the off position. It’s kinda like plugging in too many electrical devices to the same wall outlet. There's excessive and then there's downright ridiculous.

oblique strategies wrote:
On the 15" MacBook Pros, there are 2 USB ports. The right USB port has an internal hub and is shared with the keyboard, iSight, and trackpad.

The left USB port also has an internal hub, but it's only shared with the Bluetooth module.

So ideally, you might want to turn off your Bluetooth and use the left USB port for control devices.

Which works out OK, because some people say the left USB port doesn't always provide enough power for small bus-powered USB drives.

Good luck! And post any resources that you discover. Thanks

on my MBP 2.16GHz C2D 15", the left USB port has the iSight on it...

there's some info here: http://billso.com/2008/05/29/macbook-usb-ports/

anyone else got the problem of USB devices waking their Mac from sleep?

Wow, you alll came up with a lot of good ideas since I put up this original post. First I want to let you know that I've done some experimenting and gotten some results. First, I guessed that one hub being plugged into another was not such a good idea. I removed it, leaving me with 10 USB ports to work with. This is not ideal but with a little bit of swapping it works for the short-term. The good news is that all my crashing issues are over so that is a relief.

In the meantime I have been looking and did find one 10 port hub and one 13 port hub at the new egg website. Neither was over $40 so this seems like one good way to go.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817364021
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817364017

I still need to go back to Apple and get clear information about what is connected to each of the USB ports. Thanks for this tip.

With respect to the iLok, I will have to check with iLok and with Waves to see if my drivers are all up to date.

I also just checked out system profiler, which looks very helpful in decoding what is connected with what, so thanks for that tip!

Thanks all for great ideas!

--Adam

only thing I might add is that if a device is bus powered, don't power it from your USB hub. if the device has a power adapter for it, use it. that's the only problem* I've ever had with USB connections.

*well, the other problem is on PCs where sometimes you HAVE TO use a device on the same port you installed it onto. sometimes.

Tone Deft wrote:*well, the other problem is on PCs where sometimes you HAVE TO use a device on the same port you installed it onto. sometimes.

I've seen that issue with MIDI controllers/instruments its fuckin weird. I think it has something to do with the diver basically getting assigned to that specific port. Lame.

hill56871 wrote:In the meantime I have been looking and did find one 10 port hub and one 13 port hub at the new egg website. Neither was over $40 so this seems like one good way to go.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817364021
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817364017

They both seem do-able. Just make sure that whatever you get it brings its own power to the party. Your talking about a plethora of USB connectivity...

hill56871 wrote:I've done some experimenting and gotten some results. First, I guessed that one hub being plugged into another was not such a good idea

Yeah... bad. BAD. Too many hops and places for signal to get interrupted or otherwise interfered with... peaks in voltage etc.