why even let us go over ZERO DB 'S ???

[casioaz1]

so, since everyone agrees that anything over ZERO DB'S is distortion, why can't they make all DAW software STOP at ZERO DB'S and make it easier for us???

OR

is there a purpose for GOING OVER zero db's ? (i'm a novice at this kinda stuff, but, you all with me here?)

[Tone Deft]

if they did that it would hard clip, MUCH nastier.

I think. Henke???

[Johnisfaster]

seriously, could you imagine mixing in ableton if anything over 0db was a hard clip? yuck.

[rbmonosylabik]

I think it's all about freedom. For instance, some plug-ins behave differently if you feed them a signal that is too loud, and while it might sound good or like ass, having the freedom to experiment like that is always welcome.

Also, the Abes have gone to great lengths to make single tracks going in the red not clip as a safety net, but at some point, it's the user's responsibility to know what he's doing, and it's cool that they placed it up until the last effect in the Master.

[john doe by choice]

It also seems helpful in a visual sense - you can see how hard you are clipping, just looking at the master levels.

[trilo]

better living through distortion

[forge]

...why can't they make all DAW software STOP at ZERO DB'S and make it easier for us???

actually they do

the 0dB you see in a DAW is 0dB "full scale", which means... the decibel as a system of measurement is a ratio between two numbers, so there are several different types of decibel where the value is compared to something different. In the case of dBFS the volume is compared to the maximum possible digital level, which is 0dBFS

in the case of dB SPL (sound pressure level - in other words how loud a real sound is next your ears, like a plane going over at 140dB SPL or whatever it is) it is compared to the quietest sound audible to average hearing - (every 3dB is double or half the volume as it is a logarithmic scale)

as for going beyond it, one of the benefits of digital recording with stupidly hi-fi abilities like Live's 64bit internal summing buss means that the difference between the loudest sound possible and the quietest, or dynamic range, is way more than the human ear can deal with, so in other words you get way more headroom than you can possibly need. Most of it is so much out of our sphere it's actually pretty much academic and there are plenty of sound guys around who will tell you that going 64 bit in a DAW is pretty much redundant as no-one could possibly need it. I think in the case of Ableton they did it to shut people up so that they never had to have one of those infuriatingly tiresome "audio quality in Live" debates again.

technically speaking, the master channel is the only one you need to prevent from going above 0dB as that is where the sound is passed to the output and enters the analogue domain (like A/D converters/Sound card then Amplifier)

in theory you can have any of the tracks in Live as loud as you like and as long as the master doesn't turn red you'll be fine

but I wouldn't recommend working like that, even now with 64bit audio engines for a number of reasons. Firstly it's easier to manage your gain structure if you use the 0dB point on each fader as a reference point, but also some plug-ins will respond differently to different input volumes (as rbmonosylabik pointed out). So overall, it's good practice to keep everything below 0dB even though you don't have to.

[3dot...]

better living through distortion

2 kinds of people in the world...
I'm with your group...

[Sage]

Digital clipping can be disgustingly beautiful sometimes.

[casioaz1]

oops, yea, i should have mentioned that i am referring to the MASTER VOLUME. i can understand the individual tracks.

[anamexis]

well in that case, it doesn't really go over 0db.
I mean, anything over 0 db will hard clip.
So really, it's just showing you by how much your clipping... what's bad about that?

[kristoffer1989]

better living through distortion

2 kinds of people in the world...
I'm with your group...

+1

[keithtalent]

because if the did that someone would be like "why won't live let us go over zero db? Logic is better... etc."

[chaircrusher]

One of the things that would help me a lot in Ableton Live would be some higher-precision metering. Just 'going into red' isn't very specific -- decibel markings mean something to me. It seems like the meters were defined by a designer and not an audio engineer.

You only really need to worry about digital overs at the DtoA -- internally processing is floating point. 0dB Full Scale normally corresponds to signal amplitudes of -1.0 to 1.0, but intermediate processing numerically doesn't care if the signal goes over an amplitude of 1.0. There are exceptions -- some VST plugins use fixed point processing that overflows -- but they're pretty rare at this point.

I hear from some golden-ear pros that they dislike how the Ableton Live mmix bus sounds, but I've never heard a problem with it. There's some sort of soft-clipping processing that happens when the output would go over 0dBFS that sounds pretty OK as well.Clips below a certain duration are actually impreceptible.

On the other hand, it's good audio practice to keep the levels down. Bringing all faders to zero and bringing them up slowly so the main bus is peaking in the green will give you some headroom to work with; it's good to avoid the dreaded 'everything at 11' mix -- things start getting pretty grimy sounding.

[anamexis]

One of the things that would help me a lot in Ableton Live would be some higher-precision metering. Just 'going into red' isn't very specific -- decibel markings mean something to me. It seems like the meters were defined by a designer and not an audio engineer.

Make your tracks wider and your metering sections taller!