Proper GROOVE features and intelligent quantising.

[smart1123]

To change your swing value look in the top left corner of live between the meter display (4/4) and the click button is a little box that says 0, that determines your swing percentage.
I would like to see better quantizing features too but...rtfm [/quote]

[forge]

cant remember who pointed it out first but I was enlightened a while ago when someone pointed out that the grrove is only useful if you've already warped the file dead on the beat - in other words, if you have warped a loop you've probably done it with your own sense of rhythm deciding where to put the markers - the computer doesnt work out that if you've put the markers slightly before or after the beat then it's already 'schwinging' it just sets the groove according to where the warp markers are - so chances are you already put a swing in to a loop yourself when you warped it and then when live does it again your not where you want to be in the loop - I completely missed that point at first

maybe a solution would be if you could set the groove amount for each clip instead of only globally

[montrealbreaks]

cant remember who pointed it out first but I was enlightened a while ago when someone pointed out that the grrove is only useful if you've already warped the file dead on the beat - in other words, if you have warped a loop you've probably done it with your own sense of rhythm deciding where to put the markers - the computer doesnt work out that if you've put the markers slightly before or after the beat then it's already 'schwinging' it just sets the groove according to where the warp markers are - so chances are you already put a swing in to a loop yourself when you warped it and then when live does it again your not where you want to be in the loop - I completely missed that point at first

maybe a solution would be if you could set the groove amount for each clip instead of only globally

I think that that someone was me... Applying a swing or a shuffle to something that's not already perfectly quantized would make a mess of the whole thing.

HOWEVER:

For point and click composers, having groove templates and the ability to read a midi file and extract a groove map is ESSENTIAL.

[supster]

i've never used groove quantizing in live or Cubase for that matter

jazz musicians dont play thier instruments into a box that requantizes the notes to sound 'random'

so why have the computer do your groove for you, play with some feel .. manipulate midi notes and warp audio clips using the markers till it sounds right to ya if you need to edit

nice features to have guys but the quantizing is a crutch in a lot of cases, if you cant move a few notes till it feels right you should practice it imo

(groove extracting would be nice however)

[louZ]

i've never used groove quantizing in live or Cubase for that matter

jazz musicians dont play thier instruments into a box that requantizes the notes to sound 'random'

so why have the computer do your groove for you, play with some feel .. manipulate midi notes and warp audio clips using the markers till it sounds right to ya if you need to edit

nice features to have guys but the quantizing is a crutch in a lot of cases, if you cant move a few notes till it feels right you should practice it imo

(groove extracting would be nice however)

it's cumbersome to have to edit every clip by hand, while you could just use a groove template that you have created once. or use the timing of the best drummers in the world. or use the MPC's groovy timing.

groove quantize is just an extra tool, that can be used in conjunction with warp markers. it's not a replacement per se.

[supster]

it's cumbersome to have to edit every clip by hand, while you could just use a groove template that you have created once. or use the timing of the best drummers in the world. or use the MPC's groovy timing.

groove quantize is just an extra tool, that can be used in conjunction with warp markers. it's not a replacement per se.

yes, i agree they would be nice features to have, big timesavers for certain things im sure.

just dont think they are 'make it or break it' features in a sequencer, not having them shouldnt be stopping anyone from making music.
.

[louZ]

it's cumbersome to have to edit every clip by hand, while you could just use a groove template that you have created once. or use the timing of the best drummers in the world. or use the MPC's groovy timing.

groove quantize is just an extra tool, that can be used in conjunction with warp markers. it's not a replacement per se.

yes, i agree they would be nice features to have, big timesavers for certain things im sure.

just dont think they are 'make it or break it' features in a sequencer, not having them shouldnt be stopping anyone from making music.
.

for me it is a make or break feature. my timing sux

and i can't afford an MPC at the moment, but i do have MPC midi files that i can use as groove templates. cubase has this option, but everything else about that program makes me suicical.
that's why i need my favorite sequence app to incorporate this feature soon, before i kill myself

[Martyn]

It depends on what music you make and how you want to make it. If you want to play real jazz then i suggest you get a tape recorder.

My original point was about midi once upon a time being a STANDARD, remember midi implementation charts? The old Atari sequencers like Creator, Cubase, Hybrid arts etc used to have far and away more options than some of the sequencers we have today. I'm not just coming down on Live here, Reason's sequencer is awful, i just thought it couldn't hurt to ask for some more features we used to take for granted.
It's nothing to do with musicianship, you don't have to use them if you think they go againced your creativity. I used to have a library of midi groove templates that I spent a lot of time programming and a lot of these were played too. It's great to be able to re-use a groove from something you did that really worked. It speeds up your work flow and in the end makes for better creativity because you're not getting constantly bogged down in having to fine tweak 500 notes by hand.

But then that's just me. At the moment I'm experimenting with a lot of different algorithmic composing software, I'm not using any form of hand played notes at all. This is coming from a guitar player of over 20 years who's bored to tears with the whole 'it's got to be played by a human' bollocks. I'll use any tool available that might help me to create something new.

[elemental]

yes yes yes

please please please







thanks

[montrealbreaks]

Is it too much to ask of a 2004 midi sequencer to have features that were taken for granted in cubase v1 on the Atari nearly 15 years ago?

It's INSANELY difficult to get groove going in a lot of the new type of sequencers, especially Live's new midi. No iterative quantise, no simple percentage adjustment, no groove templates, no match quantise, no ability to actually SEE this quantising in the piano roll.

If you fluff a couple of notes of your perfect(?) playing, the ONLY option is to quantise it dead straight, or turn the snap off and do it the hard way! It's the only way I actually do it. What's that shuffle (sorry, groove) thing all about?

I don't get it, has groove been forgotten about? Is this why most modern electronic music sounds so wooden and dull at the moment? Is this the reason that heavy metal is suddenly cool?

Stay tuned for the next episode of "The hunt for missing groove"

BUMP

[forge]

Cubase 3 had Groove Templates and Capturing in 1996. When will Ableton implement it?
http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/1996/VST.html

rather Ironically there Monty, I just looked at that link and it had an Ad for live 5 right in the middle!!

[handojin]

lol
not all the features of cubase 3 do we need... just the one most important one

might aswell add triplet timing and dotted timing to the groove requests aswell... what do you guys reckon?

[elemental]

I think maybe Ableton made the issue complicated with the swing function ... which is different from groove. Swing is fine for house and techno, but for hip-hop, breakbeat, broken beat etc, groove is essential.

They could make groove a MIDI quantise-only thing, or they could integrate it into live like the swing function (would be cool, but I guess much more complicated)

All I need is to be able to capture the groove of a MIDI clip and apply it to other clips.
It might also be useful to be able to disconnect certain clips from the global swing. (can we do this already?)

[amo]

It might also be useful to be able to disconnect certain clips from the global swing. (can we do this already?)

Well, there is a swing parameter in each clip, where you can choose to use no groove for the very clip. Is it what you're talking about ?
Best,
amo

[montrealbreaks]

...All I need is to be able to capture the groove of a MIDI clip and apply it to other clips.

'Werd'.