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OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:55 pm
by Huey
I would really like to hear how the folks from the UK and Canada really think of their health Care. I would like to hear from people who have actually had to use it, not from the ones who never get sick or just plain don't go to the doctor. Since the US is about to go that route I would like to know, if you would, and don't sugar coat it, what are we really in for? Rationing? no end of life care? long waits? loss of small businesses that can't pay employee health care etc.
Re: OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:25 pm
by Ed J
Never had anything done myself (although I have a torn shoulder that needs attending to), but my Dad had cancer last year and they got him in for treatment very quickly and fixed the problem almost before it'd all sunk in! The NHS is good if you have something major wrong with you but if it's something a bit piddley like a major cold or an STI or something they're not that useful, the GPs just pawn you off to a specialist as soon as humanly possible!
Re: OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:45 pm
by beats me
I don't think the US is about to do anything. We've been down this road before.
Re: OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:12 pm
by OvertoneZero
It's all messed up.
Re: OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:13 pm
by joe.cavers
I was about to say, since when is the US changing to a state-funded healthcare system?
JC
Re: OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:35 pm
by leedsquietman
I have experience of Canadian and British healthcare, being a British national by birth and emigrating to Canada nine years ago.
The only drawbacks are that you can't buy your way out of a waiting line. And that the best accommodation is a semi-private room, no champagne lunches in a suit unless you went private (U.K. has BUPA and other private medicine if you choose not to do the NHS thing). Other than that, the standard of care has been really good. You can choose your own doctor, but there are doctor shortages in some areas, so you have to think real carefully before firing a doctor.
In Canada, you have to pay for prescriptions unless you have a benefit plan and that can be pretty costly - for example, my psoriatic arthritis Remicade shots were $8700 a go, and although the benefits paid for it, it wasn't endless, that comes off the total allowed under the benefits plan (2 million dollars or so on my plan, but when you're whacking it down 9,000 dollars a time, that adds up). In Canada, the provincial government controls healthcare spending, so some provinces do things slightly different and some cover what others don't etc.
In Britain, people under 19, unemployed and senior citizens over 65 do not have to pay for prescriptions on the National Health Service, and for those who do, it's about 8 dollars per prescription. The NHS though does not cover certain medications.
The biggest problem the UK and Canada have is keeping up with the funding - it seems that funding is being cut, new hospitals are only being built with corporate sponsorship and are frequently running massively overbudget - it would help a great deal of both countries pulled troops from Afghanistan (and the UK also pulled troops from Iraq), the cost of war is of huge detriment to other spending, including healthcare.
If you are in an accident and need hospital treatment, you don't wake up with a bill for tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. I could never live in the USA with their system, millions with no healthcare, and if you are sick you have no chance of getting healthcare (worth a damn). Healthy, rich people with a good job paying good benefits might like it, but insurance companies ALWAYS try to find a way out of paying, or reducing payment and leaving the claimant screwed, just like car insurance. I know 'Sicko' is not the most objective documentary and very biased, but watching that movie scared the bejeezus out of me, I honestly don't even want to visit the USA even though I'm close to the border.
Re: OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:04 pm
by OvertoneZero
leedsquietman wrote:
The biggest problem the UK and Canada have is keeping up with the funding - it seems that funding is being cut, new hospitals are only being built with corporate sponsorship and are frequently running massively overbudget
Re: OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:47 pm
by Salty P
OvertoneZero wrote:leedsquietman wrote:
The biggest problem the UK and Canada have is keeping up with the funding - it seems that funding is being cut, new hospitals are only being built with corporate sponsorship and are frequently running massively overbudget
That's not quite true, the NHS actual had a budget surplus last year and is predicted to again this year.
It always amazes me how much panic is generated in the US at the slightest mention of social welfare reform. The health service in the UK isn't perfect by any means, but getting ill just isn't something I ever worry about.
I've had my fair share of trips to A&E due to various sporting accidents, plenty of torn ligaments ans a few broken bones. It's true the waits can be a bit long for none serious injuries but who gives a shit. I've had a family member in hospital for a serious heart problem, and the care was always excellent and fast. I myself developed a freakishly low heart rate a few months back and after seeing my local GP I was in the hospital getting blood tests and a chest x-ray the following day.
The OP asked about rationing, the US has 50 million people (pretty much the population of my whole country) who don't qualify for healthcare, that seems pretty rationed to me.
In the end it's pretty simple, when you get sick someone should look after you.
Re: OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:07 pm
by musicmachine
Huey wrote:I would really like to hear how the folks from the UK and Canada really think of their health Care. I would like to hear from people who have actually had to use it, not from the ones who never get sick or just plain don't go to the doctor. Since the US is about to go that route I would like to know, if you would, and don't sugar coat it, what are we really in for? Rationing? no end of life care? long waits? loss of small businesses that can't pay employee health care etc.
It's a mixed bag. It took me three years to get a diagnosis for something that now requires quite a serious procedure. I found out afterwards that it should have been diagnosed after 12 weeks!
I had to change surgeries 3 times and saw about 6 different doctors until i finally saw a doctor i'd seen at my previous surgery and she made a referal after i pretty much begged her to do something.
Otoh my experience with hospitals has been great but i try and avoid them if i can.
Re: OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:16 pm
by glitchrock-buddha
It really depends where you live as well even within these countries with socialized health care. In Vancouver, I didn't have a familly doctor. Didn't need one. I could go to any walk-in clinic any day of the week and be seen in about 15 minutes. Non-life threatening stuff can take a while of course, like it took me 9 months to get an MRI for my shoulder to check for damage when I dislocated it and couldn't regain much movement for a very long time.
In my city in Ontario (over 120,000 people), there is one walk-in clinic which is open maybe 3 days a week for about 4 hours a day, which a massive line, and there are pretty big waiting lists for doctors. But there's always the emergency room, where you'll wait for 5 hours, but if something is serious, you'll get in fast.
My mom lives out on the east coast and had breast cancer, got it treated right away and is fine now. Had a scare the other week where there was a spot in her brain on a CAT scan. She got an MRI immediately, turned out to be nothing but a shadow on the CAT.
So I'd say I'm pretty thankful for our healthcare system, but the hardest thing is keeping doctors and nurses. So many go down south for the big bucks. Also we put too much pressure on our health care people, they have difficult quotas to keep up with which can make them really rush through patients, but fuck I'm glad the emergencies and check-ups are free at least. It's still very possible to spend a lot of money on treatment up here, but at least we don't pay for the diagnostic stuff.
Re: OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:57 pm
by Angstrom
UK experience
someone I know has a potentially fatal neurological disease, it requires a quite expensive drug to keep it in check and some other drugs just to make life livable. they earn about £200 per week, the drugs would cost around £200 per week if they paid for them. So, quite a tight budget if they had to pay.
Diagnosis and treatment
It took about 3 months from seeing the first doctor to getting it diagnosed correctly by a neurological specialist, and to actually get the MRI scan back. That's quite different from a privately paid solution. After that lengthy period they were finally referred to the correct NHS neuro clinic where they now have a dedicated specialist on call and a team of nurses available at any time. They get a delivery of hard core drugs every month and a prescription for some other drugs (to keep them mobile) which they can choose to collect from a chemist (drug store).
All of this treatment and the required drugs is/are free. Without these drugs my friend could easily have a life span of around 10 years. With the drugs it's potentially 40 years, or at least surviving until new and more effective drugs are invented.
The UK drawback
the drawback is that the initial diagnosis is quite slow, the coffee is bad, the carpets are worn and people are recalcitrant about helping you correctly unless you bully them intensely.
The UK Benefit
if you put the effort then in a poor person can manage to stay alive, where otherwise ... you would be dead my friend. Dead, dead, dead.
the NHS may be wonky, broken down and flaky in places, but if you are pushy it will keep you alive where otherwise you would be just a headstone.
You really need to push for your right to stay alive though. Otherwise. Dead
Re: OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:18 am
by leedsquietman
I live in Brampton, which is about 50 km from glitchrock. We have a few doctors still taking new patients and there are about 10 walk in clinics here. Brampton and neighbouring city Mississauga are pretty good as we have available doctors, good clinics and hospitals etc. I also get dermatology treatment from Kitchener/Waterloo which is quite near to glitchrock.
Waiting times vary depending on what the situation is - some things such as knee replacement have come down quite a bit, others have not improved or worsened, but 9-12 months is the worst wait time, with most things accessible in 3-6 months.
The staff at the new Brampton hospital are really nice and helpful, I can attest to this from personal experience and that of my wife who has been there for several tests etc. MRIs have improved vastly too, with some hospitals now having 24 hour access in Toronto and Region Of Peel, a few years ago we were paying US hospitals in Buffalo for urgent MRIs.
Re: OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:00 pm
by jonny72
Huey wrote:Since the US is about to go that route I would like to know, if you would, and don't sugar coat it, what are we really in for? Rationing? no end of life care? long waits? loss of small businesses that can't pay employee health care etc.
It mainly comes down to how much money is put in to it. Here in the UK things do seem to have improved over the last 5 years or so, though that's because we've been pumping more and more money in to it. Everything is free except prescriptions, which are £7.20 each (per medication) though if you're on them long term you can pay up front and its a lot cheaper (£104 a year for all the drugs you need).
Dentist and opticians aren't included either, you have to pay for all of that. Unless you're on benefits in which case you pay for nothing.
One thing to bear in mind is that your private health care plans should start getting a lot cheaper, as I'm guessing they won't have to pay out for all the routine stuff or a&e (emergency stuff). A lot of people still take out private health care in the UK, which gets you faster (and maybe better) treatment for certain things.
To be honest though, I really don't see how this could make things worse in the US. People not getting health care as they can't afford it just seems really fucked up to me (and most likely everyone else in every developed country around the world).
Re: OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:37 pm
by alex.the.forge
I think Australia has a pretty decent system. It struggles in some places where people are moving there just too quickly for the infrastructure to keep up (in Queensland it's apparently something like 1500 a week, mostly to coastal areas that were more or less country towns up until very recently. But my experiences haven't been too bad in the capital city with a population of about 2 million
Medicare doesn't cover things like dental or optical, and you can wait for a long time for minor things. It's up to doctors whether they bill upfront or bulk-bill to medicare (which means you don't pay to see a doctor) and even if they don't and you have to pay, all it means is you have to go into medicare to get your money back (most or all, depending on what it's for)
The whole thing was put into perspective a bit for me when I worked at a big company in London and was talking to one of the cleaners who was from I think Zimbabwe or Kenya and I asked him if he liked London and he said "yes it's great, I find it amazing that you can call an ambulance if you are sick or hurt and it will come and help you!"
Re: OT Honesty about UK and Canadian Health Care
Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:13 pm
by slatepipe
Angstrom wrote:UK experience
someone I know has a potentially fatal neurological disease, it requires a quite expensive drug to keep it in check and some other drugs just to make life livable. they earn about £200 per week, the drugs would cost around £200 per week if they paid for them. So, quite a tight budget if they had to pay.
Diagnosis and treatment
It took about 3 months from seeing the first doctor to getting it diagnosed correctly by a neurological specialist, and to actually get the MRI scan back. That's quite different from a privately paid solution. After that lengthy period they were finally referred to the correct NHS neuro clinic where they now have a dedicated specialist on call and a team of nurses available at any time. They get a delivery of hard core drugs every month and a prescription for some other drugs (to keep them mobile) which they can choose to collect from a chemist (drug store).
All of this treatment and the required drugs is/are free. Without these drugs my friend could easily have a life span of around 10 years. With the drugs it's potentially 40 years, or at least surviving until new and more effective drugs are invented.
The UK drawback
the drawback is that the initial diagnosis is quite slow, the coffee is bad, the carpets are worn and people are recalcitrant about helping you correctly unless you bully them intensely.
The UK Benefit
if you put the effort then in a poor person can manage to stay alive, where otherwise ... you would be dead my friend. Dead, dead, dead.
the NHS may be wonky, broken down and flaky in places, but if you are pushy it will keep you alive where otherwise you would be just a headstone.
You really need to push for your right to stay alive though. Otherwise. Dead
well said
i have had similar experiences over the last three years with the nhs, though i havent got a potentially fatal disease. i have had trouble with a recurring kidney stone.
i have had shedloads of treatment over the last 3 years trying to get the sodding thing sorted out.
the nhs treatment has all been free, apart from paying for a few prescriptions at the chemist.
sometimes it has been really annoying - i turn up for appointments and they haven't got my notes so they send me away or waiting in a bed all day to see someone who then just sends me home.
worst of all was the initial misdiagnosis by a specialist who told me there was nothing wrong with my kidney and i ended up having an operation on my nuts instead.
the food is a bit shit too - im not expecting lobster or anything though once i ordered a baked potato and that was literally all i got - a potato on a paper plate which rolled off onto the floor.
ive been to a and e about 15 times in howling agony and they normally sort me out with some morphine pretty quickly - sometimes within about 10 minutes. its been interesting when ive gone there (homerton hospital in hackney) on a friday night and all the drunken regulars shut up complaining pretty quick when they see the state that im in
i have had loads and loads of treatment - xrays, ct scans, examinations, consultations, lithotripsy, ultrasound, four operations under general anaesthetic to date.
and its all been free - sometimes i have been really annoyed and frustrated with what goes on and i've needed to shout a bit to make things happen but ultimately the people who work there are trying to help me, and on the whole they have. they are doing their best.
i still got a small kidney stone though
