Ableton Forum

Hey guys,

Before I start, I want to say that I desperately need your help because I've been going in circles for about four frustrating months as to what to buy. This post will be quite long and I'll TRY my best to go straight to the point.

I hope I have more luck here than over at Harmony Central. This IS a pretty long post, but I really do need this help. I understand that I shouldn't be solely relying on the advice I'm given, but I very much appreciate your comments and will definitely take into consideration anything you have to say.

I'm looking for a midi controller (or controllers) that will help make my usage of software as easy as possible.

First off, I'm completely new at anything to do with software musically. The farthest I've gone is Goldwave and skimming the surfaces of Magix Music Maker and Mixcraft. I plan to use Live 8 as my main (or sole) DAW for recording, mixing, and live performance. Out of any software, Ableton has intrigued me the most and therefore I plan to use it.

I'm extremely impressed with the APC40 (but it'd be quite easy to impress me as I don't really know what's going on anyways), but I don't know if it is a disadvantage to limit myself to Ableton right off the bat. Will the APC40 make the learning curve easier for me, or will it be even more confusing trying to learn Live with the APC40 as well?

Before I go into TOO much of a splurge, I should tell you what kind of music I play. I'm interested in electronic music, with loops and samples etc. (Thom Yorke's 'Eraser'). But foremost I play in a more traditional band with three other members. We play anything from Radiohead to Broken Social Scene and we're quite diverse in the type of keyboard instruments we have in our music (synths, strings, horns, pianos, organs etc.).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDTSz9-Ns_U
I would like to be able to do stuff like this (live) by myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBsLFNcnwGM
This is an example of something I would want to do with my band.

I'm not a complete idiot when it comes to research or what I should buy. This is what I know so far:

- I need something with keys so I can play the traditional stuff (pianos, organs)
- I would really like to have aftertouch (for synths and strings)
- I need pads to trigger samples and loops
- I need knobs and faders to better help me control my set

Other info that might help you:
- I have no audio interface nor mixer. This is something else I will buy but I won't bring this discussion here.
- I recently got a Macbook Pro (2.66ghz 4gb RAM) and also have a more than adequate desktop computer


So what do you guys suggest? I need something that has at least 61 keys (preferably 76... I'd love to have a 76-key, but if it's 61 or 88 it won't be a huge huge deal), I need pads, buttons, knobs, and faders. I want aftertouch. It needs to be easy to learn and integrate into Ableton for a complete beginner.

I am definitely willing to separate this into multiple pieces of hardware (something like an M-Audio Keystation es + an MPD24 or APC40). However, I don't know if having multiple controllers will make it more difficult. I'm scared of having only one controller with the fear of it being too limited, but I'm also scared of having two controllers with the fear of it being too complicated...

Much apologies if I seem like I desperately want to be spoonfed but I kind of have to be at this point - I'm thinking about this way too much. And thank you millions if you have even read this far and considered everything.


Thanks in advance, please help!

- Jesse

Multiple controllers won't be too complicated if you don't find an all in one solution. I use a novation remote sl 61, Lemur, and trigger finger when doing live band stuff. Otherwise, I use just the Lemur when doing solo things. The remote sl is limited to just those 8 stupid worthless drum pads, that's why I also use the trigger finger. I know there are akai keyboards that have better drum pads built in, maybe check those out. You've got lots of options, you'll get lots of opinions, it's up to you to really narrow down what your needs are.

Been posted a million times before... there is never a universal answer... everyone thinks the controller 'they' use is the best... and yet all the best tutorials out there, making the best music usually never even touch a controller.

I'd say learn Live first and over time you'll start to say 'damn I wish I had a button/knob/pad to do 'this' function and that will guide you to picking the right controller for the way 'YOU' like to work with Live

I personally, for drum pads like my Korg nanoPad (with nativeKontrol.com presets) over my Trigger Finger or MPD32... this month

I'm starting to gravitate toward using drum pads on the APC40 (also using nativeKontrol.com presets... yes I'm a fan of his presets). And now that he's adding the keyboard emu to the APC stuff it just makes things very convenient in 1 package......

For REAL keys I like my Axiom 61, but the MPK61 wasn't out then.... might a got that if it was...

My real answer is Learn Live raw first.

i sugest you get controllers in from the off. regrdless of what you settle on getting.

the thing with midi controlers is that they can be as simple as you like or more complex than the manufacturers ever wanted you to get out of them with the addition of bomes etc.

apc, something for pads (PK or MPC), and your choice of keyboard is all you should need to get of to a flying start and will do wonders to enhance your ableton learning experience.

look into these controllers from CME, they feel great and excel at functionality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLbUdfA5-8A&feature=fvw

HI there Ive been using http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/AxiomPro61.html cant complain.

Thanks for all of the replies.

I've looked at the CME controllers and they look amazing, however I've read in a bunch of places that they have almost no support at all and are not particularly well built. Should this be a legitimate concern or should I still consider it?

I've of course thought about using just Live at first, but if it makes my life easier to use hardware right off the bat then I am willing to do so.
I'm wondering if I can use the APC40 as the meat of a barebones midi controller. For example, could I use the APC40 in conjuction with, say, an M-Audio Keystation 88ES? Would this be the same effectiveness as an Akai MPK keyboard? I'm talking about using the rotary encoders for softsynths, the button matrix for samples, the faders for levels etc...

Thanks!

you can use any midi controller with any combination of midi controllers. if you don't have enough USB ports, you can run them through a USB hub, no problem.

if you can afford an APC, it's a no brainer. IMO it's a control surface, you won't be playing notes with it. BUT people are already hacking it to make it more of an instrument. max4Live is probably going to make that device SICK.

BCR2000/BCF2000. really inexpensive, very very versatile, I love mine. gobs of knobs.

after that there's stuff with pads, Trigger Finger or the Akai MPD series. or get an Akai MPK to add keys to drum pads.

there are lots of options, no one solution for everyone. buy them one at a time, learn your gear before you buy more.

remote SL series are cool because they're USB powered but TBH since I got my APC I stopped using mine. the APC has shuttle control and faders for tracks. I already have a keyboard and their automap on the LCD screens is stifling, I never really liked reading that little screen, deciphering the short handed text and paging through parameters. some people love that.

Thanks Tone Deft!

I don't think I'll be needing pads for drumming, but more for starting samples and loops. Of course, the button matrix on the APC40 covers this.

The first priority is the keyboard. I would like a 76 key weighted keyboard with aftertouch + velocity sensitivity... hard to come by. I wonder if such a thing even exists (for the price I'm looking for). However if I get the APC40, will I need all of those faders/knobs on my keyboard? Can't I just use the APC40 to control the instrument parameters and the keyboard to actually play it? Does this work or am I missing something?

The APC40 is something that looks dropdead amazing, and I don't even have Ableton yet. It seems like such an intuitive surface that would make my learning experience easier and my overall Ableton experience more efficient.

It goes for $445 CDN at my local music shop.

Anyways, please keep the suggestions coming! Thanks alot for the replies so far.

I have Edirol PCR 300 with 30 keys. they make a 50 and 80 key version all w. aftertouch. it has 16 pads that I use for muting, etc, +buttons, pads,pots, sliders and MIDI in/out in case you want to add another midi controller "in line"
It has all you want and an easy editor pc/mac.All is possible with assignments- Sysex, CC, RPN, NRPN, in various formats. It has 15(assignable) +1(non-assign) templates
Trigging samples can be done with the keyboard keys on another midi channel (X), while midi channel (Y) plays notes.
http://www.rolandus.com/products/produc ... arentId=19
hope it helps
Edit: if you got a weighted keys midicontroller- (ONLY keys-high quality) going into 3X Waveidea Bitstream 3X I think you have a good combo. The "real keys" controllers could be hard to find, but they exist...

tehJESSEH wrote:Thanks for all of the replies.

I've looked at the CME controllers and they look amazing, however I've read in a bunch of places that they have almost no support at all and are not particularly well built. Should this be a legitimate concern or should I still consider it?

I've of course thought about using just Live at first, but if it makes my life easier to use hardware right off the bat then I am willing to do so.
I'm wondering if I can use the APC40 as the meat of a barebones midi controller. For example, could I use the APC40 in conjuction with, say, an M-Audio Keystation 88ES? Would this be the same effectiveness as an Akai MPK keyboard? I'm talking about using the rotary encoders for softsynths, the button matrix for samples, the faders for levels etc...

Thanks!

actually the build of the cmes is among the best out there as far as controllers go, who ever said that they're bad build quality is misinformed. go check them out at GC or Sam ash and the quality will be the first thing you notice. whatever you get make sure it's from a place that you can return it to if need be.

also I make sure you check out the StudioLogic series Fatar controllers as well, again very very good quality. I usually have a low tolerance for sales speak but the hype about the studiologic is for real
there whole series is nothing but quality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwy1JqsfYZY