Dithering question

trikster_b · Post by **trikster_b** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:28 am

I made some MP3s lately which have kind of underwhelmed me, so I've been reading up on dither. Now the problem is I only have Live 6, so I don't have the dithering option at the rendering process. However, I downloaded the free plugin from MDA, and now I have a couple of questions:

1. If I have a mix in arrangement view, should I set up on the master channel a compressor, eq, limiter, and dither in that order and then rendering it? Is this the proper way to do this?

2. What kind of settings should the dither be on? I'm rendering at 24 bit and 44.1.

3. After I do this, then I just import it in Audacity and convert it from there. Did I miss a step anywhere or is this the right procedure?

Also, I know MP3 sounds like crap. I just want to make the best sounding MP3 I can.

33tetragammon · Post by **33tetragammon** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:49 am

hi,

about dithering,have a look here :

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=131767

-dither should ALWAYS be the LAST thing you do to your masters.converting to another bitdepth/samplerate is perfectly allright to do after that.
to get the best sounding mp3's ,convert it from a 24 bit wav/aiff file.

comp>eq or eq>comp :

trust your ears.if you do the latter,the compressor could react to certain frequencies that were boosted with the eq,which sometimes might not be what you want.
with eq,try to CUT rather than BOOST frequencies,unless you're doing sounddesign.it can sound good at first when boosting,but can be fatiguing in the long run(same as too much compression/limiting)

after those two,limiter,and then dither.

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:59 pm

If your MP3's underwhelmed you, dither will not do anything.

trikster_b · Post by **trikster_b** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:33 pm

33tetragammon wrote:hi,

about dithering,have a look here :

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=131767

-dither should ALWAYS be the LAST thing you do to your masters.converting to another bitdepth/samplerate is perfectly allright to do after that.
to get the best sounding mp3's ,convert it from a 24 bit wav/aiff file.

comp>eq or eq>comp :

trust your ears.if you do the latter,the compressor could react to certain frequencies that were boosted with the eq,which sometimes might not be what you want.
with eq,try to CUT rather than BOOST frequencies,unless you're doing sounddesign.it can sound good at first when boosting,but can be fatiguing in the long run(same as too much compression/limiting)

after those two,limiter,and then dither.

Dammit, how did I miss that topic? I even searched through ten pages...

That is a very helpful topic, thanks for linking it. I am going to try out some of the ideas in that thread. I've also been learning about compression and eq on the master the past few weeks, so I know about how to work them on the master channel.

Tarekith wrote:If your MP3's underwhelmed you, dither will not do anything.

Probably true, and I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm just going to experiment with it for now.

Thanks for the help all!

supamonsta · Post by **supamonsta** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:01 pm

well, I jump in because I'm about to dither my 24bit/44Khz mixdowns to 16bits wavs.

The mix is done, as for the little "mastering" stuff (limiting and a really really little bit of EQing).

It's just a "how-to" question, not about what preset or else,

I'm just wondering:

HOW TO????

1) load the 24bit wav in an ableton live's track
2) load the Dithering plug (I'm on live 6, I also have mda dither plug) on the track / or the master (???)
3) Render to disk? in 16bits? (I assume, yes)

what I don't get is that live's render box allows for 16, 24bits...

If I render a 24bits wav in 16bits, isn't it dithering? so I won't need any plug?
or is it NOT...?

reading the different topics I understand that a plug will help in having a better dithering,
so, what shall I do :

render a 16bits wav with the dither plug on the master channel or the track????

I don't really get it, but in fact I don't want to learn the theoretical issues about that, I just want to finish my tracks, then distribute them on the web so as I can get into other stuff quickly

cheers

EDIT : I just read elsewhere that there was no need to dither from 24 to 16bits if the audio isn't meant to be burnt on CD, and that's my case, I'll only upload the wavs in bandcamp, and make also 320K mp3s to upload everywhere on the web...

should I perhap's stick with 24bits?

is the mp3 conversion better when it's from 24bits wavs?

cheers

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:02 pm

You ALWAYS want to dither when going from a higher to a lower bitrate. Just choose 16bit POWr-2.

trikster_b · Post by **trikster_b** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:21 pm

The whole bit depth thing is confusing me a little.

If I wanted to just make wavs that I could listen to on the computer, then I would just render it at 24 bits and that would be that, right?

If I wanted to make a CD or convert to MP3, then I would put the dither on at the end and set it to 16 bits. Now in the Live rendering dialog, do I set that to 16 bits as well? Or would I set the dither at 24 bits and render at 24 bits?

One last question: I will end up with either a 16 bit or 24 bit file. Would it be better to convert the 16 bit one or the 24 bit one?

Sorry if these questions are obvious, but I want to make sure.

supamonsta · Post by **supamonsta** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:32 pm

no need to dither a 16bit file, or only if you want it at a lower bit rate (8bit music?)

you need a dithereing when going from 24 to 16 bit

what I don't know is HOW to do it.

lots of great theoretical stuff around there about dithering science, but was unable to understand the basic "how to" ...

I'm in live 6 and there is nothing about that in the manual.

how do we use a plugin with dithering abilities within live?

What confuses me is:

24bit wav file => audio track => dithering plugin (convert to 16bit) => render at 16bit????

won't the live rendering with no dithering "erase" the dithering made by the plugin?

I just don't get it...

cheers

trikster_b · Post by **trikster_b** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:56 pm

monstrejumo wrote:no need to dither a 16bit file, or only if you want it at a lower bit rate (8bit music?)

you need a dithereing when going from 24 to 16 bit

what I don't know is HOW to do it.

lots of great theoretical stuff around there about dithering science, but was unable to understand the basic "how to" ...

I'm in live 6 and there is nothing about that in the manual.

how do we use a plugin with dithering abilities within live?

What confuses me is:

24bit wav file => audio track => dithering plugin (convert to 16bit) => render at 16bit????

won't the live rendering with no dithering "erase" the dithering made by the plugin?

I just don't get it...

cheers

Yeah, I'm confused about the same things you are. I wonder how people did dithering before it was introduced in Live...

Here's another question: In Live 8, dither is an option in the rendering window. However, in Live 6, if you just put the dither last on the master channel and then render it, does that work the same way that Live 8 handles it? I think I'm just confused about the order here...

supamonsta · Post by **supamonsta** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:59 pm

100% mis-understanding the same

because the plugs dithers just BEFORE the rendering process, and not AFTER... getting me trouble

everyone is in the general forum at this time, I just asked this question over there (snow ball friendly fight)
, let's see if it attracts our resting masters

trikster_b · Post by **trikster_b** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:05 pm

Ha, I just saw your post in that topic. Maybe this thread should be moved to general to get more attention...

who am i kidding, they'll just make more topics about live's sound engine.

Tryptych · Post by **Tryptych** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:40 am

You shouldn't worry about dithering too much. In a nutshell..

- You need it when you are rendering your projects from higher bitrates to lower (f.e. 32 -> 16bits)

Dithering can also be undesired. I would suggest always work with the highest possible rate, and after the very final stages (usually limiting/clipping) you might want to add some subtle dithering and render down to 16 bits. You might want to get a plugin (Ozone etc.) that handles noise shaping well (that's the award winning MBit+ there, sounds great).

It's a very subtle treatment, and deals with psychoacoustics.

The dithering is noise, added to the background and -if using a plugin- cannot be "removed" by NOT dithering in Live. Those POW-R algorithms used by Live sound a bit different than the MBit+ ones, I prefer POW-R, but most people like MBit+, which to my ears sounds somehow a bit cheaper and more "plastic".

trikster_b · Post by **trikster_b** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:36 am

Tryptych wrote: - You need it when you are rendering your projects from higher bitrates to lower (f.e. 32 -> 16bits)

Ok, I think I understand this now. So the process would be to make a final mix, then render it in 24 bit. Then take that rendered file and put it in an empty project and put a mastering plugin on the master channel with the dither plugin set to 16 bit on the end. Then render it once more, only this time at 16bit, and this should be the final file. Is this process the right way for making tracks to put on CDs?

Sorry for all of these questions, but I think I am really close to figuring it out. Thanks for the help! I'll also have to check out this Ozone plugin, I see it recommended everywhere...

supamonsta · Post by **supamonsta** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:26 am

make a final mix, then render it in 24 bit. Then take that rendered file and put it in an empty project and put a mastering plugin on the master channel with the dither plugin set to 16 bit on the end. Then render it once more, only this time at 16bit, and this should be the final file.

If that's it, that's all I wanted to know, thanks dear fellows

trikster_b · Post by **trikster_b** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:44 am

monstrejumo wrote:
If that's it, that's all I wanted to know, thanks dear fellows

Yeah, if someone can confirm that this is the way to do it, then I think I finally understand it (at least for now).

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