Ableton Forum

Just read in Syntopia that Jitter is limited in what can be done without owning/buying it already.
Since I just bought Max4Live this week, without much/if any true understanding of the limitations/potential of Max4Live I find this disheartening.
I thought this to be a workaround to incorporate video with Live sets. I'm not so sure now, and feel as though I may have spent $300 for something I thought to be a complete
program recklessly. My understanding was that this is a complete program, just locked within Live.
Any care to enlightened a bewildered neophyte?

http://cycling74.com/docs/max5/vignette ... tions.html

Max Authorization States
Max for Live is integrated with Max's own copy protection and authorization system. Max can be running on its own authorization, via a Live authorization, or both. When the Max application receives its authorization from Live alone, a number of limitations apply. Before we describe these limitations, it's worth describing how Max will be in any particular authorization state.
Max's own copy protection and authorization system starts in demo mode, typically a one-time 30-day period in which it is fully functional. During the demo period, you can launch the Max application by double-clicking on it from the Mac OS Finder or Windows Explorer. You will see a dialog informing you of the remaining demo period that also permits you to authorize the software. Click the Demo mode to continue launching Max. Once demo mode expires, you will not be able to launch Max from the Finder or Windows Explorer without purchasing an authorization from Cycling '74.
Note that when launching Max via Live, you will not see the demo dialog, nor will you be informed when the demo period expires.
A Max authorization comes in three varieties: you can purchase Max alone, or Max/MSP to work with audio, or Max/MSP/Jitter to work with both audio and visual media. MSP and Jitter work during demo mode, but after that, they require product-specific authorization.
If you have purchased Max for Live, Max devices will have an edit button in Live that will launch Max and open the specified device. Once Max's demo mode has expired, if you do not own a Max authorization, you can only launch Max by clicking on the edit button in Live. If you own both Max and Max for Live, you can launch Max either way, but you will only obtain Live's authorization if you launch Max by clicking the edit button in Live.
Max for Live Limitations
Any limitations imposed by a Live authorization will not exist when Max is fully authorized (or when it is in demo mode). In other words, your fully authorized copy of Max is never limited by launching the application via Live.
Another way to put it is this: Max can determine its own authorization state whether you launch it from the OS or from Live. But the Live authorization state can only be set properly when launching from Live.
Audio Limitations
When authorized only via Live, the Max application will not use its own audio drivers. Its audio input is the input to a Max device you are editing, and its audio output is the output from that Max device. Audio I/O works when using preview mode. If you turn preview mode off, all audio I/O for the Max application will stop.
Input and output are limited to two channels (MSP supports up to 512 channels of audio I/O). When you open a Max patcher such as a help file, the dac~ objects in the patcher will be mixed with the output of the device you are currently editing. If you open a file with dac~ or adc~ objects when you are not editing a device, or when Preview Mode is turned off, you will not hear any sound.
If Max and MSP are authorized when editing a Live device, Max windows that are not a part of the Live device will use the regular Max audio drivers.
MIDI Limitations
When authorized only via Live, the Max application will not use its own MIDI drivers. MIDI input arrives from Live and MIDI output is sent to Live. MIDI I/O works only when using preview mode. If you turn preview mode off, all MIDI I/O for the Max application will stop.
When you open a Max patcher file such as a help file containing Max MIDI objects, the MIDI output will be sent to the MIDI output of the device you are currently editing. If you open a file containing MIDI objects when you are not editing a device, there will be no MIDI I/O.
If Max is authorized when editing a Live device, Max windows that are not a part of the Live device will use the regular Max MIDI drivers for MIDI objects.
Jitter Limitations
When authorized only via Live, the visual display of the jit.window and jit.pwindow objects are crippled. This limitation does not exist inside Live itself, or when Max and Jitter are authorized.
Other Limitations
When authorized only via Live, Max cannot build collectives or standalone applications. Frozen devices, which Max for Live creates, are very similar to collectives.




so ya, it's crippled unless you also own the full max/msp/jitter license.

and when yu open max via the edit button.. can you buld your own patches than in all regards or are you limited to the basic layout of the patch you opened via the edit button?


its a bit hard to experiance all the troubles with live 8.1 just for a max promotion tool

Well I hope others read this who are considering the purchase of max4live.
What a COMPLETE let down. No where in the adverts do they even hint that it is limited in it's abilities.
Thanks 4 nothing Ableton.

bodhi71 wrote:Well I hope others read this who are considering the purchase of max4live.
What a COMPLETE let down. No where in the adverts do they even hint that it is limited in it's abilities.
Thanks 4 nothing Ableton.

^ No doubt. I'm a ball-baby.
I just thought the only limitations consisted of only being able to open Max4Live in Live.
Thanks for the insight Law.
It would have been a deal breaker for me.
It seems like an expensive run-time app with a few bells and whistles thrown in for good measure.
I'm sure I'll find uses for it, albeit not what I had originally had in mind when I purchased Max4Live.
There should be some indication ( prominently displayed) of what Max4Live is NOT capable of without addition funds expended.
It's a bit misleading...

you have to read more carefully between the lines in product anouncements.. they only say that you can process video..not that you can display video..

3phase wrote:you have to read more carefully between the lines in product anouncements.. they only say that you can process video..not that you can display video..

sure, ordinarily I'd agree with you that it's best to read between the lines - especially with Ableton's flexible ideas of what is promised compared to what is delivered. But bodhi has a point

this is what they say about max4live:

"Max for Live now brings the full functionality of Max, MSP and Jitter to Live, with seamless integration. "
http://www.ableton.com/maxforlive
It's clearly disingenuous marketing, I've seen Ableton employees discuss the crippled nature of Jitter within max4live on blogs (ralf @ createdigitalmusic), so why can't they make sure their advertisements clearly say that Jitter functionality is crippled unless you already own a full max/msp/jitter license ?

it's a lesson bodhi needs to learn once, I'm sure.

Well, you'll get a discount for the Max5 bundle if you already own M4L (and if the marketing speech rings true, your discount will be abt 150-200 euros)

3phase wrote:you have to read more carefully between the lines in product anouncements.. they only say that you can process video..not that you can display video..

Well, for the laymen, process and display are almost identical. Granted, maybe I should have been a bit more cautious. I will be faaaar more scrutinizing with any Ableton product from now on. And much less likely to buy anything.

"Max for Live now brings the full functionality of Max, MSP and Jitter to Live, with seamless integration. "
Must be a linguistics thing, from german to english, ie ;Full Functionality=Crippled and not what you expect to get.

I'm trying to be cautious with my words, I am a very grateful that Ableton are offering a great product in Live and that I am very happy with almost every facet.
I would hope that they either change how they market Max4Live or offer a Full Functional MAX to Live.

they do offer the full FULL functionality. you just need to purchase a max/msp/jitter license separately.

here's what Ralf (ableton) said about the crippling at the end of November:
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/11/2 ... -creators/

Ralf @ createdigitalmusic wrote:
Just wanted to note that the issue 3 “Jitter output is crippled in Max for Live if you don’t also own Jitter.” might be a bit misleading.
When using an MfL device with a jitter Window
in Live the output is as good as
technically possible.

On the other hand, the preview during editing
is technically difficult in any respect,
you also have more audio latency for example.

Of course you can’t make stand-alone Jitter
apps without the Max license, but that
wouldn’t be fair to users who have paid much
more for Max than MfL costs, would it?
November 24, 2009 @ 5:43 pm

lol,
his sensitivity to 'misleading' words is teh irony,
anyway as 'zeal' put it

zeal @ createdigitalmusic wrote: surprised about the jitter crippling, seems such an annoying inconvenience. I’d expect such things from dodgy internet crippleware but it’s a bit disappointing seeing it come from cycling74. I’ve bought my copy of m4l and luckily i already own max otherwise i’d be kicking up a shit as jitter was the main draw card for me – like many others i’m sure.
have gotten a little midi video player going…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbfGE_3n7WQ
…but would have been a major pain getting it running minus the jitwindow in edit mode.

with the right patch max4live could really rival a lot of vj programs out there, especially with it’s way wicked midi mapping.
November 24, 2009 @ 11:00 pm

so, not quite maimed...just crippled.

I brought this up a while back but didn't get much of a response. Almost bought M4L, but after reading about the limitation, and not quite understanding what that would mean in terms of how I wanted to use it, I decided to wait until I could demo it.

I think they are on the cusp of offering up a demo right?

Its very good if all you want to do is create audio/midi in, stereo out plugins - which I guess was probably the aim with the rest being there mainly for existing max/msp/jitter users.

However pretty much everything I had originally planned on doing in M4L turned out to be subject to various bits of crippling across the board which werent marketing blurb and further reading. Im not even sure it can let me create the various side chain audio effects I hope to eventually get around to - stereo in/out seems to be the current state of play and so far no obvious way around that - so there goes all the potentially very useful and relatively easy to create sidechain tools.

Not much use for video or hardware synth control panels however (no direct access to hardware midi ports combined with lives rather minimal midi support kills that).

The one plus - it is marginally quicker to writte c++ externals for it than writing a VST plugin from scratch in c++. Im still working out whether overall its easier to create a m4l+external than a vst plugin for some of the other things I wanted to do with it

can someone clarify: does this mean that you can't send video output to a second monitor? if jitter is inside of m4l, then where exactly are we seeing the resulting video? in a little window in your m4l patch?

I'm not entirely sure, continuous, but I believe you can demo M4L. I believe you have to have 8.1 and must download M4L from cycling74. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Of course you can’t make stand-alone Jitter
apps without the Max license, but that
wouldn’t be fair to users who have paid much
more for Max than MfL costs, would it?

I would say it to be more unfair to be selling wares with a proposed functionality knowing full well it to be deceitful in intent and words.
It is presumed and implied to have a tradeoff that M4L only works when using Live.
I'm sure some others had been duped, hopefully this thread may prevent others from shelling out $300 on crippled software.
The cost of upgrade is far too much for the additional functionality, especially for a singularity of purpose.

Maybe I'm not entirely clear on what CAN be done with Jitter in regards to Live.
What if I wanted to have Video controlled in Live but sent to a projector? Is this possible?
Question 2. Is it possible to use these products to make videos within Live and exported as Quicktime Movies and the like?
If the above 2 are possible and really a workable option then really I guess I'm sated, if not, screwed.
Little late on the draw.
Scientist has summed my inquiries.