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Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:31 pm
by patekswiss
One question I keep getting is how to set up multitimbral instruments in Live so that you can generate multiple tracks with a single instrument using only one instance of that instrument. My experience is that this does save significant processing power, at least in my Mac environment, compared to using multiple instances of the same instrument.

First, what is a multitimbral instrument? It is an instrument that can independently produce more than one sound at the same time. Prominent examples of multitimbral soft synths include such well-known Spectrasonics products such as Stylus RMX and Omnisphere. Each of these synths has a mixer page showing up to 8 tracks. Each of these tracks can have a different preset on it (or any other customized setting, of course), and each track responds to incoming MIDI signals totally independently of the others. Another examples if the Virus TI Desktop synth, which is 16 parts multitimbral. Again, in Virus Control, you can navigate to the mixer page and see the ability to put in place up to 16 different programs on their own tracks, and again, each one responds to MIDI signals independently.

What this boils down to is this: With one instance of, say, Stylus RMX and the Virus TI each, you can have up to 24 separate tracks in Live. And the great thing about a synth like the Virus TI is that the great bulk of the processing load takes place off your computer CPU. Sixteen separate tracks you can add with basically no incremental load on your CPU. Nice.

So here is a step by step example of how to set it up. I will use the example of Stylus RMX, but it the approach is basically the same for any multitimbral synth, including the Virus TI.

In Session view, create an instance of Stylus RMX. By default, you will note that right above the fader and send section, the output indicator shows that this MIDI track is outputting to the Master. That is just fine; leave it as it is.

Now, create an additional MIDI track next to the one you just created with Stylus RMX on it. Now, in the output section of this new midi track, click the drop down menu. You will see a choice for "Stylus RMX", which is the instance you just created above. Select that. Click right below that, and you will see a choice of channels on the Stylus available to output MIDI to. Select the first channel.

Now, re-activate the first MIDI track you created with Stylus RMX on it. The Stylus RMX plug in window will appear (if it doesn't, find the representation of the Stylus RMX plug in at the bottom of your Live Session View and click the wrench to display the window). Go to the mixer page on Stylus and make sure that track 1 is selected (it will be, by default). Click on the chooser for the track to active the Stylus RMX browser menu and choose a program to put on that track (can be any Stylus loop, including a full kit or maybe just a bass drum or high hat from "groove elements"). When you find something like that, drag and drop the loop from the Stylus RMX window to the second MIDI track you created (*not* to the track that has Stylus RMX on it). When you activate the scene, that MIDI track will send the information from the MIDI loop to the Stylus RMX track based on the routine we've put in place above, and you should hear the loop playing. You will notice that the VU meter under the Stylus RMX MIDI track will register that audio is playing. The metering under the Channel 1 MIDI track, the one we dragged the MIDI loop to, will have instead of an audio meter the vertical array of round dots indicating that it is showing MIDI trigger information, not audio.

You continue by adding additional MIDI tracks, sending the MIDI output again to Stylus RMX, and then specifically directing the MIDI output (in the drop down menu right below that one) to Channel 2 of Stylus, then Channel 3, then Channel 4, and on until you have enough or you reach the maximum number of tracks that Stylus can handle (8). As you do this, make very sure you select the CORRECT CHANNEL in the mixer onboard the multimbral instrument BEFORE you look to change the preset to create your new track -- otherwise you will change the preset on the track you've already created (and these plug ins dont always make it easy to "undo" or find the previous sound you had).

When using something other than a drum synth, such as the Virus TI, to record an individual track once you've set it up as indicated above, you simply arm the relevant MIDI track. When you play your midi controller, you will hear the multimbral instrument respond with the program that you have on just that track, and you can record as you usually would in Live with a separate instance of the instrument.

I find it helpful to keep the "children" MIDI tracks in Session view with the one "Parent" track on which the instance of the multitimbral instrument resides. Even more helpful is to make all of those Session tracks the same color so you can quickly see how they are grouped.

The downside to using this approach is that all audio from the one instance of the instrument is summed and mixed at the instrument level, so you can only change the volume for all of the tracks together using Live's fader, or you can only apply Live effects (or Live plug effects) to all of the multitimbral instruments all at once, not to individual tracks within the instrument. While that is a draw back, in the case of instruments like Virus TI, Stylus and Omnisphere the VST/AU plug itself gives you a high degree of control not only over individual track volume levels, but also over panning and effects for each track individually. Plus, you can automate all of these controls individually. Tracks launch in Session view as if they were separate instances of the instrument. So this limitation is really not that much of a problem in practice, and the efficiency of using the multitimbral approach is easily worth having to re-orient yourself slightly to this way of working. Of course, if you absolutely must need to place some particular VST/AU effect on an isolated track, you can always break down and create a second instance of the plug in.

Hope this is helpful to some people out there who haven't yet unlocked the power of their multitimbral VSTs and AUs.

Re: Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:21 am
by 3dot...
holy 8O moly....

Re: Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:43 pm
by kanthos
Is there an easy way to route MIDI data from one track on one MIDI channel into a multitimbral instrument on multiple specific channels (i.e. not all 16, but say 1-4 and 6?)

Re: Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:24 pm
by 3dot...
kanthos wrote:Is there an easy way to route MIDI data from one track on one MIDI channel into a multitimbral instrument on multiple specific channels (i.e. not all 16, but say 1-4 and 6?)
either using 5 midi tracks(ch.1,2,3,4,6) routed to another midi track...
or using an external midi router a la 'midi-ox'...
are the only ways I can think of..

Re: Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:35 pm
by kanthos
That's what I figured, reading through the manual, but I figured I'd ask. Another way I can think of is to use an external plugin that rechannelizes data. This would be the ideal way since I'm a keyboard player wanting to change my MIDI routing in some flexible way for each song. If I come up with a plugin that'll work, I'll post it here; there's got to be something like that out there.

Re: Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:06 am
by 3dot...
kanthos wrote:That's what I figured, reading through the manual, but I figured I'd ask. Another way I can think of is to use an external plugin that rechannelizes data. This would be the ideal way since I'm a keyboard player wanting to change my MIDI routing in some flexible way for each song. If I come up with a plugin that'll work, I'll post it here; there's got to be something like that out there.
well..
midi-ox is your friend then..
it's been a life saver for me for more than 5 years now..
you can set up midi filters and route your stuff all over..
plogue bidule is also very handy in that matter..
as you can setup your midi routings freely..

there's also a method involving a midi-rack..with 'external instrument' on each chain..
and 1 midiyoke bus...
this will allow you to switch through midi channels using an encoder..(via 'chain selector'...)

Re: Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:30 pm
by pablowog
I have been using the method described here for my rmx use. However I was wondering if there were a cleaner way to set up rmx for use in live 8. Perhaps with an instrument rack, or drum rack. Anyone doing this?

Re: Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:56 pm
by mholloway
Good god people just use the little, ultra-efficient "External Instrument" plug!!! that's why it's there!!!! (it's NOT just for hardware, it's specifically designed to be a dead-easy way to route multi-timbral and rewire instruments/programs)

kontakt, omnisphere, reason.....I use tons of instruments from each all setup on single channels in live that have NO difference in their mixer settings than any other channel. thanks to the simple external instrument box.

-M

Re: Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:52 am
by Tagor
"The downside to using this approach is that all audio from the one instance of the instrument is summed and mixed at the instrument level, so you can only change the volume for all of the tracks together using Live's fader, or you can only apply Live effects (or Live plug effects) to all of the multitimbral instruments all at once, not to individual tracks within the instrument."

NO - If you create audiotracks and route the IN/outputs in the right way you can apply
effects to each single track of the mullti - so done with Trilian or UVI.

for the apc it may be handy to build groups including one midi & one audio track

you can easy intercept the audio from the diffrent outputs of the VSTs
just choose audio from XX-vst and choose in the sub the selectetd output channel

Re: Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:17 am
by Angstrom
mholloway wrote:"External Instrument" plug
this

Re: Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:40 am
by patekswiss
Tagor wrote:"The downside to using this approach is that all audio from the one instance of the instrument is summed and mixed at the instrument level, so you can only change the volume for all of the tracks together using Live's fader, or you can only apply Live effects (or Live plug effects) to all of the multitimbral instruments all at once, not to individual tracks within the instrument."

NO - If you create audiotracks and route the IN/outputs in the right way you can apply
effects to each single track of the mullti - so done with Trilian or UVI.

for the apc it may be handy to build groups including one midi & one audio track

you can easy intercept the audio from the diffrent outputs of the VSTs
just choose audio from XX-vst and choose in the sub the selectetd output channel

I stand corrected. That's absolutely right. Thanks for the input.

Re: Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:43 am
by patekswiss
kanthos wrote:Is there an easy way to route MIDI data from one track on one MIDI channel into a multitimbral instrument on multiple specific channels (i.e. not all 16, but say 1-4 and 6?)

why not just set up the desired instruments on the multitimbral plugin to respond to the same midi channel that the midi track is transmitting on?

For instance, there' s no reason why you can have 5 instances of different instruments in, say, Kontakt 4 that all respond to midi channel, let's say, 3.

Re: Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:17 pm
by eegee
Curious - when setting up Kontakt multi-timbral using the External Instrument. I usually put the plugin on one track (without any midi input) and separate out the various instrument inputs to other tracks. I've found that Kontakt stereo 1-2 ALWAYS maps to the track that the plug-in is inserted on (which I dont use for midi) and only stereo 3-4 and above are available for me to map to my other midi tracks. Does anybody know how to fix this so stereo 1-2 isnt wasted on the plug-in track and map it instead to a different track?

Thanks,
EG

Re: Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:23 pm
by mholloway
eegee wrote:Curious - when setting up Kontakt multi-timbral using the External Instrument. I usually put the plugin on one track (without any midi input) and separate out the various instrument inputs to other tracks. I've found that Kontakt stereo 1-2 ALWAYS maps to the track that the plug-in is inserted on (which I dont use for midi) and only stereo 3-4 and above are available for me to map to my other midi tracks. Does anybody know how to fix this so stereo 1-2 isnt wasted on the plug-in track and map it instead to a different track?

Thanks,
EG
If you just use the midi track that the plugin is on as your first instrument in kontakt, then you won't be wasting stereo 1-2. IOW, just dont' separate them out as you're doing, and actually use the plugin-inserted track as an instrument...also saves some screen real estate (your still separating the rest, just not the first instrument).

-M

Re: Multitimbral instruments in Live

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:43 pm
by fx23
while you are on the subject. is there a workaround to the fact live flatten and marge all midi chanel to one.

ie on output of my Vsti(usine) i got several notes, on sevaral channel generated. i activate in on a new miditrack feed by this track, if then i drop a vsti(usine again) on that track and try to debug the midi it gets, I see that all data have been merged to single channel 1 by live.????

in otherwords is it possible to get multichannel midi inside a miditrack, keeping channel infos over the ^path? it seems not...
but maybe some has workarounds? (i would like to avoid dealing with pitch/velocity filters ideally...)