First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

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Dalfir
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Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:16 pm

First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by Dalfir » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:32 pm

So tonight was in effect something I'd been working towards for the last three years. My first real live set. For the last few weeks I'd been totally shirking college responsibility, putting essays and projects on hold so I could solely concentrate on this event. I'd spent days putting together a set incorporating my iPod Touch and NanoKontrol. I went through 4 full rehearsals over the last week and I was having no problems whatsoever.

I get to the event, with about forty minutes to my set I get on stage and start setting up. There was a multi-plug adapter right next to me, no hassles plugging in. My fears of pulling out a cable for a CDJ or mixer (my biggest fear at the point) were moot because there was a separate adapter for live equipment. I thought that I'd have everything set up in a few minutes and could go get a drink and give the DJ some space to finish his set before I came back.

Everything seemed great, Live was running flawlessly my NanoKontrol was working perfectly. My Novation Nio 2/4 wasn't giving issues in the headphones. Monitoring the signal straight from the box on my headphones, the signal was crystal clear. I was so excited.

Then things went pear shaped.

Using RCA connectors, I plugged into the mixer, A Pioneer DJM600 which, ironically, is one of my favorites for DJ sets. I asked the DJ if I could quickly check the signal with his headphones seeing as he had a good six minutes to his next mix. Shock. The signal was low. Very, very very low. With the gain on the mixer set to full, only two green lights were barely flashing on the mixer's meters. My heart sank but then with total relief I realised "Shit, the Nio has Phono outputs. Wow, that could have been embarrassing." So - and I still have about half an hour till my set now - I quickly swapped the inputs on the mixer from Line to Phono thinking everything would be peachy.

Nope.

The signal going into the mixer was one of the dirtiest, most distorted noises I've ever had the displeasure of experiencing. My god, it was horrible. The bass sounded like a hollow shell, the kick was more distorted than the most intense Gabba track - and this was for a Psytrance set, by the way. The gain pot on my Nio seemed to have absolutely no effect on the signal going into the mixer. The gain set at 9 o clock on the mixer was still pushing the mixer so far into the red I was expecting flickering bars to start flying out the back. Even with the gain set nearly to infinity, the signal was still horribly distorted. There was absolutely no way I could make anyone put up with even 16 bars of that, it'd probably be against the Geneva convention.

I called the event organiser over and we tried sorting things out (this all over another poor DJ trying to play his set with two people clambering over his shoulders.)

We tried different channels on the mixer, we tried different cables, we continuously switched between phono and line on the mixer in case by some act of God, the architecture of the hardware would suddenly accommodate me.

I rebooted three times.

By now I'm down to the last five or so minutes of this guy's set before I need to get things going. I can't think of a situation more sickening for a DJ then watching the remaining time on a CDJ tick down while wiping the sweat off your brow and wondering what the fuck you're going to do. It is seriously the kind of thing I've honestly had nightmares about. This entire night was literally a nightmare come true.

There is a somewhat happy ending though. As I was leaving home, laptop slung over my shoulder, a voice - a very quiet one - inside urged me to grab some CDs just in case Plan A failed. So in the last 15 seconds before my set started, I flung a CD into the CDJ and played a DJ set that I didn't enjoy in the slightest. For the whole (lengthy) drive home I've been stressing over the fact that I don't know how I can be booked as a live act with the heavy burden of knowing that this could happen again and not having any idea as to why.

Does anyone have any answers or suggestions? Really one of the most disappointing things I've experienced in a long time which is so sad because it was a seriously rocking party. I have to thank the enthusiastic crowd who didn't seem to care one way or the other what was being played as long as there was doof and it sounded good.

Any advice would be very, very appreciated and encouraging, like a big fuzzy hug. Please excuse the lengthy post, but it's somewhat cathartic for me at the moment. :P

re.mark
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Re: First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by re.mark » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:43 pm

Best piece of advice to learn here, is to get into the club before it opens, setup and sound check with ample time to problem solve should things go wrong.
It sucks for you that things went wrong for you, but had you setup and checked before the club opened, it could have been a lot less stressful for you, the promoter and the other DJ and perhaps a solution could have been found in time to perform etc.
As to why things didnt work, I'm not too sure what to suggest, have you since tried the same setup at home?

Destro
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Re: First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by Destro » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:00 am

I totally feel you, bro - a couple of months ago, my laptop died on me literally 5 minutes before my set. I felt like throwing up for days.

Anyway, I'm also using the Nio 2/4 and I'm happy to report that it's served me well. I've used it to play in clubs with no problems at all. I usually leave the gain on my Nio to 3 o'clock and adjust the gain on the club's mixer to taste.

Since twiddling the gain pots of your Nio had no effect, I suspect an audio driver problem. Try reinstalling the Novation drivers and be sure to select "Novation USB ASIO Driver" in your Audio Device section.

As for advice, it is IMPERATIVE that you do a sound check at the venue prior to the gig. Do it a couple of hours before the gig starts at the minimum, though I'd suggest you do it the day before so you've got ample time to sort things out if there're problems. While you're at it, make sure ALL of the channels on the club's mixer are working.

Also, carry around a lengthy mix CD in your gig bag just in case. It'll buy you precious time while you sort out last minute tech difficulties.

Lastly, bring a spare laptop if possible.:)

Hope you sort out your problem!
Last edited by Destro on Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

Destro
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Re: First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by Destro » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:09 am

Also, here's a really helpful list of tips for digital dj's from the awesome Ean Golden:

http://www.djtechtools.com/2008/03/05/h ... in-a-club/

Dalfir
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Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:16 pm

Re: First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by Dalfir » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:01 am

Hey guys, thanks for the tips. At home, I go straight from my sound card to my monitors with no problems. Right now I'm kicking myself for not thinking about just going straight from the laptop's line out into the mixer, but I have a feeling the output would not have been strong enough for a nice signal. I also came across another forum post regarding hard-wired gain boosts in the phono stage to accommodate old turn-tables, but I'm not sure if this is the case. Can't for the life of me find that post now!

But thanks again for the tips. :)

rompling
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Re: First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by rompling » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:20 am

I have used a nio in very similar conditions seems like audio card problem but I always use ASIO4ALL as my driver my 2 p`s worth- :P but don`t beat your self up have seen / heard big names who have same problems
Pc Dual core 3gb Ram Live 8 ,Reason 4, Novation X station Akai MPC1000 Novation Nio2/4 M Audio BX 5 Korg Zero 8 Novation Nocturn & Launchpad
Been on live since version 2 but ableton forum has somehow only had me down as a user since 08 doh !

Dalfir
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Re: First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by Dalfir » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:30 am

Oh yeah, I should add that I'm also using Asio4All as the official drivers give me major hassels, also involving serious distortion, but this is totally evident when monitoring through the Nio itself let alone a mixer. I haven't had any issues with using Asio4All at home.

contakt321
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Re: First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by contakt321 » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:42 am

I have never used DJM600 but I have used a DJM800 + Novation NiO

To me, this sounds like an user error (sorry).

When troubleshooting in the future, you want to eliminate every possible cause for problem.

Thoughts:
- The DJM series has 4 channels, I believe (I could be wrong) 2 of them are Phono/Line and 2 of them are CD/Line. There may be differences in the gain settings of these. Do you know what you were plugged into? You should (probably be using Line).
- I would have tried different gain settings of all kinds, like low output on NiO, hi gain on mixer, or vice versa. Also, did you look at the master output in Ableton? Maybe this was clipping from something happening in the software causing the crap sound.
- You did great by carrying CDs, it would be a good idea to bring a 1/8" to stereo RCAs to run straight out of your laptop. I have used that in a pinch and been fine.
- Like someone else mentioned, I think you should have gone to the club before the gig to soundcheck. When I DJ I typically arrive an hour before the gig to set up, even if I am just using Serato or even vinyl. Better to have more time to figure out a solution to any problems. This is crucial when you are using a "non-standard" equipment at a club (by that I mean not turntables or cdjs).

Sounds stressful, thankful you were smart and brought CDJs. Hope the CD set went over well!

Dalfir
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Re: First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by Dalfir » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:59 am

Hey, the Nio only accommodates phono outputs though. I went into the mixer's channel 3 and then 4 (the line/phono channels.) Master output was clean, I had a limiter on that never got pushed past 3dB of gain reduction. Tried all the different gain combination I could think of but to no avail. Next time I'm going to bring along a back-up cable so I can bypass the interface and go straight from the laptop to the mixer but that means I wont be able to run my iPod through Live. I'm definitely breathing many sighs of relief regarding the CDs (actually near-hyperventilating breaths of relief.) I would have been totally and utterly screwed if I didn't have any with me. :P

Tarekith
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Re: First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by Tarekith » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:13 am

Phono outputs does not mean an RIAA phono signal. A lot of soundcard use phono outs for line level signals, sounds like it was you switching it to phono mode on the mixer that messed things up. You plugging into THAT mixer was what messed you up somehow, because everything else was the same when you got home and tried again, right?

contakt321
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Re: First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by contakt321 » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:35 am

Tarekith wrote:Phono outputs does not mean an RIAA phono signal. A lot of soundcard use phono outs for line level signals, sounds like it was you switching it to phono mode on the mixer that messed things up. You plugging into THAT mixer was what messed you up somehow, because everything else was the same when you got home and tried again, right?
This.

Just because it's RCA connectors doesn't mean it's at phone level. When using a NiO with a Pioneer DJM series mixer, you need to use the Line input. If I recall correctly, I would generally have to get close to maxing out the output of the NiO for the correct volume.

rbmonosylabik
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Re: First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by rbmonosylabik » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:35 am

+1 with Tarekith

I'm pretty sure manufacturers call RCA output connectors "Phono" just because of the type of connector. Your soundcard outputs at Line Level, and your live set's output was too low to get a good signal level into the mixer, but it still was way too much for the Phono input. I think you may have a gain staging problem.

For example, with a MOTU Ultralite, if I'm going to the PA through another mixer I have to set its output to 0dB (Max) to get true Line level. Anything below means I'll have to make up for gain in the mixer. With a mixer that works great, but if I'm going from the Ultralite directly into powered monitors, I must turn my output level down by a lot (-30 dB aprox. with the B2030a I have), or I risk blowing them as soon as I hit play.
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emef
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Re: First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by emef » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:45 am

i always use a mini mixer between my laptop/soundcard and the clubs mixer line in
the audio from ableton/laptop always needs boosting
using a mini mixer is the easiest way to boost the signal to the same level as the decks if there is no more gain available on the clubs mixing system

fingerprince
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Re: First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by fingerprince » Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:12 am

Well.............. Commiserations
Sounds like enough to give us fat blokes a heart attack
Just think though - you've had the disaster - the only way is up
Remember "If it doesn't kill me , it only makes me stronger"
And, you have learnt lessons - when it come to live performance
there is no replacement for experience :-)

arafel
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Re: First live set - epic fail. What went wrong?

Post by arafel » Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:42 am

Dalfir wrote: Using RCA connectors, I plugged into the mixer, A Pioneer DJM600 which, ironically, is one of my favorites for DJ sets. I asked the DJ if I could quickly check the signal with his headphones seeing as he had a good six minutes to his next mix. Shock. The signal was low. Very, very very low. With the gain on the mixer set to full, only two green lights were barely flashing on the mixer's meters. My heart sank but then with total relief I realised "Shit, the Nio has Phono outputs. Wow, that could have been embarrassing." So - and I still have about half an hour till my set now - I quickly swapped the inputs on the mixer from Line to Phono thinking everything would be peachy.

Nope.
Well... +1 for having a backup plan, in some CD's. Always have a backup/ fallback plan.
Take heart that you pulled it off, even with things going sideways. :D

You will have to get good at troubleshooting... IMHO - There is very little consistent, 'plug and play'. With all the different gear combos/ paths out there, your scenario is all to common.

Take Tarekith's advice about the Phono... decks will output 'phono signal', and thats it. But you have discovered the secret to some of Astral Projections latest shows! :P Do not use Phono, Do not use Hi-Z (guitars).

Always bring you own (fully trusted) cables (balanced), and several types (1/8", RCA, 1/4", XLR). If your the last guy to setup, you can get stuck with limited options as to how/ where to plug-in.

You will need to know how your setup (computer & soundcard) stacks up against others for output/ gain-staging, and adjust accordingly.

Cheers!
2.8ghz Quad Mac, Live 9.77, Remote25, Maschine 1, Fa-66 optical link, Samson 65a. Dog hair.. lots.

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