Ableton Forum

Good day all,

This is my first thread ever here, so Hi everyone <waves>. I initially posted this on the Native nstruments forum but received no response and after looking here, could see that it was alot more active.

Now, I do not wish to cause any cross product controversy, I just want to explain my story and what I see as somewhat of a dilemma.

Last year I purchased a Numark Omni to replace my old and dieing CDJ set and instantly upgraded to Traktor Pro from Lite. And I must confess, being able to SEE the soundwaves/form of the music along with certain functionality such as auto-counting the number of bars from a cue-point and then figuring out why this functionality was there I learnt more in 6 months then I did in my previous 4 years of mixing.

I learnt so much that I figured that I wanted to get into the Producer side of electronic music and even to make my own little 30 second breaks to work into my transitions and mixes. I had ideas, lots of them, thanks, initially to TKPro.

The software I eventually bought to do "producer" work with was Ableton Live 8.1, only recently at that, and now I find myself in a HUGE dilemma. I have been working my way through the manual and taught myself a LOT of Ableton; so much so that I've been able to put a few tracks together already from loops I have made using a MIDI keyboard, intermixed with purchased loops and drum patterns.

Obviously I realized VERY quickly that I could use Ableton Live to do everything I could with TKPro and much, much more. The problem I guess is that I don't perform anywhere live (even though I feel I could) and just really put CDs together for my (and my friends) benefit. I don't even have a means of distributing them. I've also made some remixes, (here's a link to one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N34qheyUPg) which hopefully demonstrates that I have some potential and/or future somehow/somewhere.

To stop the rambling, I guess the problem I have is that I have a soft spot for TKPro, it taught me so much and I spent my hard earned money on it. When recording though, one mistake and I have to re-record ALL over AGAIN, but with Ableton it's just an adjustment and a new export.

If so, this upsets me, truly, becuase I like my Traktor Pro; I feel in a way it has been my teacher to get me to where I am today (and ironically generated a sale for Ableton Live) and I want to keep using it but am troubled more and more as I can't find a reason too compared to just doing everything in Ableton Live. Another question I suppose I have is would any "Live mixing" skills I have deteriorate.

I would also add, that in regard to supporting the Numark OMNI that TKPro is a lot more functional and usable than it is in Ableton Live. I do understand that Live mixing can be done using Ableton but I do find it a little "clunkier" compared to TKPro. Sigh, I am still rambling because I'm not really sure what I'm asking. I think more than anything I am looking for support as I transition from one product to another. (I also understand that my equipment is not as great and powerful as many others, I am not particularly wealthy but I try and use what I have to it's fullest potential).

Honestly, any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

A background in Traktor Pro will serve you well in the forum, as you'll be able to agree with a lot of posts made by Beats Me and SubFunk on very meaningless and heated DJ'ing software threads.

Don't be sad. You have two software products that you like. How about you stop looking at Traktor as a producing program, and start looking at it as a DJ'ing program? You can produce tracks in Live and DJ them in Traktor.

You should be able to MIDI-learn most of the stuff on the OMNI to use with Live, right? I think everything is going to be okay, pokeyoats.

Agreed... just use them both. You can even use them in conjunction with each other. I have this very set up, minus the omni. For live gigs, I route audio from Tpro into Live to take advantage of Live's effects. It's great for recording demos/mixes too. If you make a mistake in Traktor, simply go back a few bars, start Live's overdub and fine tune the cross fades... good to go.

cheers

Thank you THANK YOU eveyone, this is the exact kind of help I was looking for!!

Hidden Driveways, I REALLY appreciate your statement that everything is going to be ok and I'm feeling more and more confident of this after posting here!!

Drewbixcube however has me REALLY intrigued. How are you routing audio from TKPro into Ableton Live, is this on one machine? If so are you using a cable to route line-out to line-in on the smae box or is there a way to get Live to listen to the Windows Sound stream? You could be using a Mac though, rats, that would be frustrating if it was something the Mac could do but the PC couldn't.

When I first got Live I ran TKPro on my Laptop and routed audio using the line-in on my desktop's soundcard and running Live. I believe my initial reasoning was to be able to play "over" Traktor's output and use effects mapped to midi keys in Live (whooshes buzzes, clicks etc.) to spruce up transitions.

I remember though that there was an odd lag on the incoming audio from TK Pro but I am starting to wonder if this has anything to do with my inexperience with tweaking the Audio setup form the main preferences as I only recently learnt how to adjust the latency. I.e. setting the quality that I wanted from my soundcard created 100ms latency, which was nticable whne using hte MIDI keyboard, then I discovered that you could "peel this back" in Live and ended up with a far more responsive 25ms latency. Am I on the right track?

Anything you would care to share on this process of using Live and Traktor Pro together I would be truly grateful for!

Routing externally will introduce the most latency. I'm using Soundflower, which I do believe is mac specific, but there is a more universal option in Jack: http://jackaudio.org/download

I've even heard Jack is better than Soundflower, but if it ain't broke...

What I do is set Traktor's output and Live's input to Soundflower, then set Live's output to my soundcard, routed to an external mixer. With the omni, you probably aren't using an external mixer, in which case you'll have to make some adjustments to your omni template in Traktor. It is ideal to use external mix mode in Traktor so you can route each deck to it's own track in Live. This will disable certain functions in Traktor though, such as each Decks fader control and the crossfader. Not to worry, because you can remap those controls from the omni to Live's corresponding faders. The major benefit to doing this is you can then have deck specific effects in both Live and Traktor. As with any soundcard, you'll want to set the audio buffer as low as you can before you start to hear pops/clicks.

Also, some Live effects, such as beat repeat, can be tempo specific. To make sure the tempo stays the same between the applications you will need to enable Traktor's virtual midi port. Do this by enabling "send Midi clock" in Traktor, then create a new general midi template that sends Midi to the virtual output. In Live's midi preferences, you then need to make sure sync is enabled for "input: Traktor virtual output". Lastly, enable the EXT button at the top left of Live's main window, and press the play button for Traktor's midi clock (found in the metronome tab of it's main window). You should then notice Live start to play.

Unfortunately, the accuracy doesn't seem to be spot on so the tempo jumps around a bit in Live, but since you're only using it for effects, the jumps are negligible.

Anyhow, have a fiddle and make adjustments as you see fit. I'm sure you might come up with some ideas of your own on how you want to set it up.

You are a true gentleman, thank you ever so much!

I am going to work my behind off on the weekend and get this going and try to document it on the way in case there are differences with Jack (plus I can add screenshots to a word document and print it as a PDF) and post it for others here that may have found themselves in a situation like I did!

I use Traktor Pro for DJ and Ableton Live as DAW, Both AWESOME!!!!! ... maybe some day I'll give Ableton Live a try for DJ or perform live..

Unfortunately I have nothing to document because the Jack audio solution really didn't work at all. Although I got sound and sound routing working correctly there was no way I could generate a MIDI device that Traktor Pro could see to send the external sync to Live 8 with; this meant there was always a discernible and troubling lag from Traktor to Ableton.(sigh).

Jack Audio was also generating (at times) 33% system CPU utilization and I have a quad core CPU. I suspect that it was DSP audio processing that was either generating wait states or IO flooding causing the delays. I also could also not use the audio outs of the OMNI as Jack could only see the internal sound card as "system sound" no matter what I selected.

So another sigh, I think I have passed the point I need to. In many ways I give up. I might as well just use Live 8 to make CDs and sadly see Traktor Pro and my OMNI to be just another financial loss; maybe it's the push I need to get out there and do some live mixing (DJ) work...

(sigh)...

Migra wrote:I use Traktor Pro for DJ and Ableton Live as DAW, Both AWESOME!!!!! ... maybe some day I'll give Ableton Live a try for DJ or perform live..

Same. Love Live as a DAW but didn't really enjoy DJing with it - its too easy & too much preparation so I just get bored and mess with fx. DVS is awesome.

Acid303 wrote:

Migra wrote:I use Traktor Pro for DJ and Ableton Live as DAW, Both AWESOME!!!!! ... maybe some day I'll give Ableton Live a try for DJ or perform live..

Same. Love Live as a DAW but didn't really enjoy DJing with it - its too easy & too much preparation so I just get bored and mess with fx. DVS is awesome.

Your comment is REALLY, REALLY helpful because you're definitely echoing my sentiments. Live IS too easy to DJ with and to a point, I must admit that if you use automation for transitioning it is too perfect, almost robotic to a point; which I guess it is.

I think all of this discussion has really helped. I am going to force myself to use both products to keep skill sets up and to give value to personal financial investment in my equipment!

pokeyoats wrote:Unfortunately I have nothing to document because the Jack audio solution really didn't work at all. Although I got sound and sound routing working correctly there was no way I could generate a MIDI device that Traktor Pro could see to send the external sync to Live 8 with; this meant there was always a discernible and troubling lag from Traktor to Ableton.(sigh).

Jack Audio was also generating (at times) 33% system CPU utilization and I have a quad core CPU. I suspect that it was DSP audio processing that was either generating wait states or IO flooding causing the delays. I also could also not use the audio outs of the OMNI as Jack could only see the internal sound card as "system sound" no matter what I selected.

So another sigh, I think I have passed the point I need to. In many ways I give up. I might as well just use Live 8 to make CDs and sadly see Traktor Pro and my OMNI to be just another financial loss; maybe it's the push I need to get out there and do some live mixing (DJ) work...

(sigh)...

i use jack to route 2 decks from T pro to 2 channels in Ableton, BUT and its a BIG BUT you must also map the master tempo in T pro and Ableton to the same Knob on your midi controler AND ensure that the maximum range available in Ableton for the tempo is the same as T pro, that way the two programs will always stay at the same bpm and as long as you have one track/clip going in both it will always be in sync/ phaze. you can get some awsome stuff happening with an apc 40. This whole thing drove me crazy for about a week . I eventually found a good tutorial from Bentosan on Dj tech tools.com or the Native instruments website cant remmember which one . But it works! and Bentosan also gives you a template file for jack router so you dont have to do it yourself. If you still have problems let me know and i'll dig up a link for you.

Again, many, many thanks!!

It looks like I need to go back at it as that template sounds very helpful!! I know that I'd really love to get it working this way!!

i use ableton and have for about 4 years. if i had my time again i would most likely use traktor. however, i havent yet seen "the bridge" put to good use outside of hiphop.

ableton is great for studio mixes but a little flat when it come to the live stuff.

nuperspective wrote:however, i havent yet seen "the bridge" put to good use outside of hiphop.

People are using "The Bridge"? is it like beta-testing or something?

STRATEGY

pokeyoats wrote:...there was no way I could generate a MIDI device that Traktor Pro could see to send the external sync to Live 8 with; this meant there was always a discernible and troubling lag from Traktor to Ableton.(sigh).

Just a quick note: As of the last Traktor Pro update, you can no longer select/activate MIDI ports from the MIDI preference pane. In order to send MIDI clock messages, you have to create a MIDI map page, like the one with all of your omni mappings, and set it's output to the Traktor Virtual Output. No MIDI input is necessary, and you don't have to actually make any mappings. Without it Live will not see the virtual port.

Don't give up! Read a bit about Traktor's virtual ports and sending/receiving MIDI and clock messages, and before you know it everything will click.