Ableton Forum

To my dismay, I notice that there was a change in 8.1.3 to the way Live recalls Plugins that use clip envelopes.

When saving a set that uses a Native Instruments plug-in and Clip Envelopes, Live will now store the "modulated" parameter (via envelope) as the new parameter. Wherever the modulation was at when saving is recalled as the new "base" parameter and the envelope applies from there. It means that such plugin tracks will not function properly without "initializing" them back to %100 manually.

Example:

Cutoff set to %100 in plugin and saved as patch.

Clip envelope has 4 steps. 1.) %100 2.) %75 3.) %50 4.) %25

Playback starts and is stopped when it reaches %50.

Session is saved and re-opened.

The cuttoff function now starts at %50 and goes to %75 of that, then %50, then %25. Completely misrepresenting the clip. This is new in 8.1.3. Before the "base" setting would be saved with the session, and wherever the clip envelope was would be ignored.

Have to DL 8.13 before trying that though. I'm a bit reluctant as long as I don't read a changelog.

Yes, I think I am seeing this as well. I have a clip envelope that modulates a VST's filter parameter and is not working correctly in 8.1.3. It looks like the starting value is different than it should be (or was in 8.1.1). I load the same set back into 8.1.1, and it works as expected. Not good.

PS - This clip is in the arrangement view, but it shouldn't make a difference.

Bump. I'd like to use clip envelopes with plugins again someday.

same thing happened to me and i posted about it on the dramirez forum. never happened before. the only workaround i have is bouncing everything to a new audio clip, which sucks because then you cant mod the original source after that.

Another workaround would be to just use Midi. That of course has its disadvantages as well.

After a short test > Bug confirmed

But only for vst's.

Fortunately, most of the time I use audiounit plug-ins.


cheers, palmer

This is most definitely happening with AU plugins too. I never use VST's and it is happening on both my desktop and laptop. If I set the modified parameters to 100% before playback, then it plays fine, but you have to remember to do this before you save or the next time you reload it will be all screwy again.

Hi Bhang,

As I said I can confirm the bug, LLF has described above, with VST's very easily but (also after some more tests) did not have this problem with audio unit plug's. (checked this with automat, some apple audio units, bx-cleansweep and MiniSpillage).

Can you give some information about the au plug's where this problem occurs (so maybe I can double check) ?


regards, palmer

I got this too with AU's, very annoying getting all those automation lines.

Yet another workaround would be to make a clip for initialization purposes. Normal all the modulations (set to 100%) and fire it before saving. This is, of course, totally mickey mouse.

I'm dreading a response from Ableton that they actually had some kind of purpose for this change...

Tkrupa wrote: I'm dreading a response from Ableton that they actually had some kind of purpose for this change...

For vst's there is definitely a bug.
As LLF has described above, (In the case of vst's) after saving and reloading the set the modulated (relative) value now is all the time the new (absolute) value. (regardless if the session or the arrangement is active)

In the case of racks, Internal and max devices the relative value is reminded by live but also the proper absolute value. (no issues examined)

In the case of au devices it seems that their behaviour is somewhat in between that. The relative and the absolute parameter position is saved and reloaded with the set - have a look at the triangle inside the "live" view of the au parameters (not the plugin gui).
But in the case I play the set, stop it at a point where a clip has modulated a certain parameter, stop this clip and save and reload this set, the relative (parameter) value now is valid until I start a clip which is modulating this parameter again.
From this point the parameter behaves as expected.
This is when session is active - no issues when arrangement is active -> in my experiences.

@tarekith and Bhang: Maybe I oversee something with the au's.
Can you check this with (for example) the apple AULowpass and explain step for the step the issues that you have?

As -> another - workaround:
Rack the plug-in, map the desired parameter to a macro and modulate this macro.

cheers, palmer

bug confirmed on PC XPsp3

please send the bug report to [email protected]

it's not enough to mention it here

include the steps you detailed here and provide a link to this forum thread.
This is a serious bug, it could fubar many sets

I cannot confirm this, but it seems like a very serious bug.