Ableton Forum

I know master clocks are probably one of the last to upgrade.. i know i thought i would never spend money on something that doesn't create or alter sound.. and inititally, i thought clocks were just for people that were syncing several digital equipment.. but some just add them even though they are just running one AD/DA converter.. and the more i hear about them, the more i find people say that it definitely makes a difference in your mixes, vst instruments sound more alive, more depth, clarity, less ear fatigue, etc.. I even hear of people who are just plain audiophiles that get them purely to increase their listening pleasure. and I know getting a clock won't mean much if you have crap in your signal chain.. but given the signal chain below, would it make a difference?

blue kiwi>>ADL 600 mic pre>>>Lynx AES16e (PCIe card)>> Lynx Aurora AD/DA >> Dangerous D-box >> Event Opal's...

lastly, it's a toss up between apogee Big Ben or Antelope isochrone ocx.. anyone with experiences with these units or any other master clocks please chime in..

thanks,

and you run ableton live on that setup and listen with event speakers?
you dont need a masterclock than because you cant hear the subtile differences anyway
)

and with only one digital unit in the studio you dont need one aswell.. at least when the internal clocking of the unit is ok..

what shoud be the case with a lynx... but i am not sure about that...

3phase wrote:and you run ableton live on that setup and listen with event speakers?
you dont need a masterclock than because you cant hear the subtile differences anyway
)

and with only one digital unit in the studio you dont need one aswell.. at least when the internal clocking of the unit is ok..

what shoud be the case with a lynx... but i am not sure about that...

do you get notifications when someone even remotely mentions opals in the forum..
either you got a bum pair or a girl named Opal broke your heart..

but yeah, i know i only have one digital unit but I just kept reading about people who use it like so and supposedly get improvement in audio quality.. I remember them saying you havent heard Tiesto's latest album until you hear it clocked on a big ben.. not really, but they kinda say stuff like that..

nuxnamon wrote: lastly, it's a toss up between apogee Big Ben or Antelope isochrone ocx.. anyone with experiences with these units or any other master clocks please chime in..

These units were never designed to (and do not) improve the quality of clocking of a single piece of gear like an A/D converter. It's a myth that they do this, and a disgraceful number of those things have been sold to people who don't need them.

The purpose of these clock distributors and synchronizers is to lock together multiple pieces of gear with the same wordclock. The fancier units can extract word clock signals from one kind of source and convert it into a standard word clock signal or into another format like ADAT or SP/DIF, so that you can sync units that don't have word clock connections.

Long story short, if you aren't having big word clock synchronization problems involving multiple pieces of equipment that you're trying to lock together, then you don't need these. You'd be much much better off spending money on another kind of gear that will give you a real benefit, something that you won't have to imagine that you hear, but something huge like new monitors or a new instrument or a good microphone or something like that.

-Luddy

nuxnamon wrote:

3phase wrote:and you run ableton live on that setup and listen with event speakers?
you dont need a masterclock than because you cant hear the subtile differences anyway
)

and with only one digital unit in the studio you dont need one aswell.. at least when the internal clocking of the unit is ok..

what shoud be the case with a lynx... but i am not sure about that...

do you get notifications when someone even remotely mentions opals in the forum..
either you got a bum pair or a girl named Opal broke your heart..

but yeah, i know i only have one digital unit but I just kept reading about people who use it like so and supposedly get improvement in audio quality.. I remember them saying you havent heard Tiesto's latest album until you hear it clocked on a big ben.. not really, but they kinda say stuff like that..

people tell all kind of shit regarding audio since production became a hobby for the masses...

some even tell that opals are the best monitors money can buy ...

when you can live well with lives internal jittering you defenently can do it without a big ben...

However

it is true that a good clocking sounds better and more clear and open and smooth and less metalic than a bad one..

just.what is a bad one? RME interfaces say they have 2 nano seconds jitter..

Rosendahl nano clocks say they are better than 10 pico seconds... that is around 200 times less... but how does your system syncs to the external clock? is it distributed without any process jitter? so are the 2 pico seconds that what your system is really getting? depends on your converter i would say... and the ability of your speakers to show the difference....

However...

if theese measurements are true a rosendahl in a higend enviroment well might be able to improove the sound quality...




in professional studio and digital broadcast instalation you have to proove the customer a system jitter below 5 ns...

so everything below 5 ns is considred good allready...


interresting that appogee dont gives the techical data of big ben.. in case of jitter its an absolute value that exactly tells how good a machine is.. i guess they cant compete with the crazy rosendahl guy

He is called the synchronicity pope in germany... when others say its ok when wordclock cable differ by up to 10 or even more meters he says it has to be less than 30 cm diference ..

for max quality he is probably wright. he is the sync pope

Scientific tests suggests that jitter is inaudible until it reaches >30-50 ns in sighted tests, and a few times that in blind tests. I don't want to google around to find them, but upgrading your master clock is more than a little silly.

By the way, it's rare to find gear with even 5 ns jitter. The odds that you have any audible jitter in your setup is close to nil.

thats not true.. i once had a installation of a berlin thx certified room and spotted problems in the system just by listening to it...

it turned out that a wordclock distributer was faulty.. the measurements showed 20 ns jitter... the unit got replaced..we was below 5 ns as ordered everything sounded much smoother...


i cant tell from personal experiance wether the 2 picos of a rosendahl make another big step..

i just know for sure that all the tech nerd statements of what one cant hear are usually bullshit..just because they cant hear it dont says no one cant... please remener that we got told that a cd has the best possible audio quality back in the 80´s..

as we know now that border of perception has changed allready...


i would say find a shop where you can testdrive a rosendahl at home..

and do propper listening tests... if you cant state a clear better that jumps in your face its not worth buying...

as said before.. the main purpose of a masterclock is to sync multiple units... the better jittering is just the icing on the cake...

if that makes a huge difference or not i cant tell yet..never did the home test with a ultra low jitter clock like the rosendahls..

Before you drop the cash on a digital clock, I'd suggest spending a few bucks on the book "Mastering Audio" by Bob Katz, if only for the section on digital clocking. It debunks a lot of myths. Long story short, unless you are sending digital signals between multiple pieces of gear, a clock will almost never make any difference. Your bog standard soundcard will likely perform better using it's convertor's own clock than even the highest end external clock master. Won't make ANY difference when it comes to digital audio still in the computer ala VST's, and your DAW.

yes this is exactly what it says and it's not just Katz's measurements and opinion.

Unless you are syncing several pieces of gear, it's not worth it.

Tarekith wrote:Before you drop the cash on a digital clock, I'd suggest spending a few bucks on the book "Mastering Audio" by Bob Katz, if only for the section on digital clocking. It debunks a lot of myths. Long story short, unless you are sending digital signals between multiple pieces of gear, a clock will almost never make any difference. Your bog standard soundcard will likely perform better using it's convertor's own clock than even the highest end external clock master. Won't make ANY difference when it comes to digital audio still in the computer ala VST's, and your DAW.

True. Although, IMHO, an external clock can change your sound. I have a Big Ben and I noticed a significant improvement, (subjective) in my mixes. YMMV.

I also have High Level monitors and an Apogee DA convertor in my monitoring chain. All of which have contributed to a truer monitoring environment.

The Big Ben is only clocking the Apogee D/A?

Tarekith wrote:The Big Ben is only clocking the Apogee D/A?

It's clocking My MOTU Traveler into DP and LIVE.

ChiDJ wrote: True. Although, IMHO, an external clock can change your sound. I have a Big Ben and I noticed a significant improvement, (subjective) in my mixes. YMMV.

I've had a Big Ben for years, that I use to lock together three A/D - D/A boxes and a couple of hardware signal processors, sometimes using SP/DIF or ADAT as the master clock source. I've never once in all the years I've owned it heard any difference whatsoever in sound due to it. I recommend to the OP to forget this as an avenue to sound improvement -- it's a synchronization device and nothing else. If you want good sounding audio gear, there's a ton of it available that will give you improvements that are easy to hear, useful, etc. Don't waste your money on clocking gear you don't need.

-Luddy

thanks for the responses.. i mainly asked also cuz a guy was selling these units for a fairly good deal which caused me to look into clocks more closely. They've been sold but i wish I jumped on it ($700 for either one) and tested it myself and see if I noticed a difference.. I imagine I could've sold it easily and probably for the same price, if not more.. alot of studios seem to be closing down as of late.. i guess more and more are doing majority of the work at home.. i think the bigger studios are just now for signed acts and such..

luddy wrote:

ChiDJ wrote: True. Although, IMHO, an external clock can change your sound. I have a Big Ben and I noticed a significant improvement, (subjective) in my mixes. YMMV.

I've had a Big Ben for years, that I use to lock together three A/D - D/A boxes and a couple of hardware signal processors, sometimes using SP/DIF or ADAT as the master clock source. I've never once in all the years I've owned it heard any difference whatsoever in sound due to it. I recommend to the OP to forget this as an avenue to sound improvement -- it's a synchronization device and nothing else. If you want good sounding audio gear, there's a ton of it available that will give you improvements that are easy to hear, useful, etc. Don't waste your money on clocking gear you don't need.

-Luddy

hey luddy.. with all that digital gear, doesn't the big ben get rid of supposed jitter, and hence improve synchronization which improves sound.. I dunno, maybe i am still confused about clocks..