Ableton Forum

No.

Just another bad myth based on engineers not understanding what they are using or basic physics being spread around the internet as fact.

0dBFS = 0dBVU on a digital system and there's no correlation with an analogue set up.

??? when you mix analog you usually should reduce the levels..

same applies to most daw´s that have a defined gain structure..


ableton decided for an open gain structure to allow all the beginners to go along without taking care with levels.. .. One just wonders why other daw´s have a limited gainstructure than when this dont comes with a price... but thats not the question here..


you have to reduce levels..either you dont record as hot..or you reduce with the utility plug .. best as the first one in the chain... because many plug ins dont have an unlimited internal headroom...

german broadcast standard on recordings is -9 db... british is -18..

so you wont reduce more than -18.. however.. only pro interfaces deliver 22db at fullscale...

thats wher the -18 are reffering to. british broadcats standard that became the aes standard.. ( at least in the past..maybe they have chnged that by now..but i dont think so)
So +18 db headroom on +4 nominal..gives 22db max output.. but where the meter shows zero you have +4db...

so a digital interface should send out +22db on fullscale

But the reality of many cheaper soundcards is rather something like+10 to +15 db on fullscale.. even when they claim to be at +4 nominal,
what actually even more points to the fact that some units have problems with fullscale signals and just dont sound optimal at this point...

So in reality the reduction you do to run your analog desk properly is rather around -12 db..
its only an exact science with pro equipment


best is to record with some headroom.. but not 18 db.. you just dont see the waveforms anymore in ableton live than..

-6 to -9 maybe.. and furter reduce with the utility plug as needed..usually another 6 to 9 db...

Sage wrote:No.

Just another bad myth based on engineers not understanding what they are using or basic physics being spread around the internet as fact.

0dBFS = 0dBVU on a digital system and there's no correlation with an analogue set up.

thats of cause just bullshit.. because every digital signal has to hit the analog world at one point.


i dont know what you mean with dbvu

but because the digital scale counts from negativ values up to a max of 0dbFS that equals +22dbu

What the fuck is a "gain structure"?

evon wrote:What the fuck is a "gain structure"?

dont bother.. its only for grown ups

0dB full scale is an absolute maximum, not a target to aim for... when you're working on music there's no need to go anywhere near that even on your master channel. Especially in this modern age of 24 bits etc.

Ableton's internal processing is forgiving if you go above 0dB on an individual channel level, but I still think it's good practice not to do so.

Everyone making electronic music should have at least a basic understanding of gain structure/gain staging... and while I'm at it so should DJs, the red lights on mixers aren't there for decoration!

3Phase is correct here.

Although sometimes the value of 0dbFS can be between +18 (for very poor, cheap analogue boards) and +26 or higher (on really high end gear which allows extra headroom, such as 100k mixing consoles) on analogue depending on the gear. I've seen API, SSL and (modified) Neve consoles run as high as +26dB without clipping.

Gain structure (using good gain structure principles such as watching levels, leaving headroom and a certain amount of dynamics) is really important for producing clean, distortion free audio with good headroom, the kind which sounds best, least ear fatiguing and suffers less from broadcast radio compressors pumping the sound.

leedsquietman wrote:3Phase is correct here.

what you mean with "correct here" i am allways correct

leedsquietman wrote: Although sometimes the value of 0dbFS can be between +18 (for very poor, cheap analogue boards) and +26 or higher (on really high end gear which allows extra headroom, such as 100k mixing consoles) on analogue depending on the gear. I've seen API, SSL and (modified) Neve consoles run as high as +26dB without clipping.

0dbFS has nothing to do with analog boards..the only thing specified on an analog board is the nominal level.. thats where the meters show zero.. in the biggest part of the world thats +4dbu
in germany its +6dbu

the max undistorted output any professional device should bring is the +22dbu...
but thats not nominal.. thats what pro equipment is supposed to do..
but you cant rely on that

some manufactors have problems with that..or just save some money and say.. better good sounding 15 db headroom than bad sounding 18 db...

others just beef it up a bit more..especially old american desks like to do that...
once had an mci console that was able to do 32 db... powerde with +/- 36 volts..
so 72 volts in a singel channel.. crazy.. but sounded extremly fat..
its allways the bass that benefits from anything related to power...


so the relation between analog scales and digital scales is not defined by an idividual manufactor..

its international technical standards by now and beyond the point of free interpretation for decades now...

OK I think I prefer the term "Gain Staging" in fact that was what I was used to. Gain Structure sounds unprofessional to me. I guess I have to grow up.

In fact we should also remember the resolution factor. Using up the maximum quantity of bits available when gain staging. This is a good read:
http://emusician.com/tutorials/max_headroom/

3phase wrote:

Sage wrote:No.

Just another bad myth based on engineers not understanding what they are using or basic physics being spread around the internet as fact.

0dBFS = 0dBVU on a digital system and there's no correlation with an analogue set up.

thats of cause just bullshit.. because every digital signal has to hit the analog world at one point.


i dont know what you mean with dbvu

but because the digital scale counts from negativ values up to a max of 0dbFS that equals +22dbu

Not bullshit at all. 0dBFS does not equal +22dBU at all, it can be any number you want it to be, hence why you get different figures depending on what analogue equipment you are comparing to and what standard you are working to.

Obviously every channel hitting 0dBFS isn't going to sound good and you will have to turn down, but the amount you have to turn down by is enough to prevent all channels, including the master from ever hitting 0dBFS or -3, -6, -12 etc if you're sending it to be mastered and every mix is different.

Analogue & digital mixing are ultimately completely different and should not be directly compared as it is leading to bad advice and just because something is on Gearslutz, doesn't make it true or accurate.

For me, the gist of the gearslutz-thread is the following :
Even though the DAW itself has plenty of headroom, it's wise that the gain before hitting the plug-ins is controlled, as most plugins have a certain sweet spot that can easily be overloaded. Add up many plugins over many channels and you'll get a mix that just won't cut it...
The main contributors on this thread are Skip Burrows & Paul Frindle, who are extremely knowledgeable and very helpful. I implore you to take their advise very seriously.
It's true there are a lot of folks on gearslutz posting nonsense comments, but a few professionals over there have helped me out a lot!

regards

Sage wrote:No.

Just another bad myth based on engineers not understanding what they are using or basic physics being spread around the internet as fact.

0dBFS = 0dBVU on a digital system and there's no correlation with an analogue set up.

I fully agree.

djsynchro wrote:

Sage wrote:No.

Just another bad myth based on engineers not understanding what they are using or basic physics being spread around the internet as fact.

0dBFS = 0dBVU on a digital system and there's no correlation with an analogue set up.

this

& Ignore 3phase

dumbots in action