Ableton Forum

Hello,

I'm looking to get rid of my quad-core desktop and opt to move to a laptop with much less processing power.

I'm attempting to do research, but is it correct that sound signal processing will take place on dedicated hardware (such as an external sound card)? Would this include processing of not just the sound signal, but also MIDI signals, and VST calculations, etc?

Otherwise, I guess I'm stuck with this big box for now.

Thanks,

Matt

?? that's not correct. Sound is processed via your computer's cpu and sometimes RAM. An external (or internal) dsp unit will also feed some audio software with processing resources.

Your audio card's driver can lighten up a bit the cpu, if it can handle large buffer without problems and also can provide your system stability and low latency.

PC or Mac?

Windows PC.

Your reply seems to be contradictory:

No, there is no way to have dedicated hardware perform processing:
"?? that's not correct. Sound is processed via your computer's cpu and sometimes RAM."

Yes, there is a way to have dedicated hardware perform processing:
"An external (or internal) dsp unit will also feed some audio software with processing resources."
"Your audio card's driver can lighten up a bit the cpu, if it can handle large buffer without problems and also can provide your system stability and low latency."

I'm unclear. If I buy an external sound card and hook it up over a high throughput, low latency medium (such as firewire 400 or USB 2.0); can I expect that it will perform well?

For instance, another example of dedicated hardware would be a RAID controller, or a dedicated encryption/decryption ASIC.

Any input is appreciated.


Thanks,

Matt

branded wrote:Windows PC.

Your reply seems to be contradictory:

No, there is no way to have dedicated hardware perform processing:
"?? that's not correct. Sound is processed via your computer's cpu and sometimes RAM."

Yes, there is a way to have dedicated hardware perform processing:
"An external (or internal) dsp unit will also feed some audio software with processing resources."
"Your audio card's driver can lighten up a bit the cpu, if it can handle large buffer without problems and also can provide your system stability and low latency."

I'm unclear. If I buy an external sound card and hook it up over a high throughput, low latency medium (such as firewire 400 or USB 2.0); can I expect that it will perform well?

For instance, another example of dedicated hardware would be a RAID controller, or a dedicated encryption/decryption ASIC.

Any input is appreciated.


Thanks,

Matt

I've gotten pretty good results w/ a firewire interface w/ a mediocre PC. I know that on my beast of a machine if I don't have my firewire interface plugged in it takes 45 min to load up my template set and it is pretty much unusable. If I have it plugged in it takes about 15 seconds to load and I get nearly lag free playback. YMMV

AceLuby wrote:

branded wrote:Windows PC.

Your reply seems to be contradictory:

No, there is no way to have dedicated hardware perform processing:
"?? that's not correct. Sound is processed via your computer's cpu and sometimes RAM."

Yes, there is a way to have dedicated hardware perform processing:
"An external (or internal) dsp unit will also feed some audio software with processing resources."
"Your audio card's driver can lighten up a bit the cpu, if it can handle large buffer without problems and also can provide your system stability and low latency."

I'm unclear. If I buy an external sound card and hook it up over a high throughput, low latency medium (such as firewire 400 or USB 2.0); can I expect that it will perform well?

For instance, another example of dedicated hardware would be a RAID controller, or a dedicated encryption/decryption ASIC.

Any input is appreciated.


Thanks,

Matt

I've gotten pretty good results w/ a firewire interface w/ a mediocre PC. I know that on my beast of a machine if I don't have my firewire interface plugged in it takes 45 min to load up my template set and it is pretty much unusable. If I have it plugged in it takes about 15 seconds to load and I get nearly lag free playback. YMMV

There's two ways to go about answering such a technical question: 1) With technical analysis, numbers, graphs, specifications; and 2) "Yes, it works because my computer is slow then, and isn't then."

Either is just as good


So thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. Which external card do you use?


Thanks,

Matt

the solutions to external process are only

_DSP card (powercore/UA/wave ect) but processing only compatibles VSTs
_network spread computers(Fx teleport like)

but booth will increase latency as needing extra buffers (but will reduce cpu load).

of course a Raid solution will increase speed transferts but no impact on cpu.
good soundcard with good asio drivers also reduces Cpu load.

in any cases, about 80 percent of live process won't be affected and will remain same cpu load.
so for real time low latency process, there is no ideal solution execpt a beefy computer.
i own a pocoX8, also try fx teleport, and while cpu gain is very good especially for ie high reverbs computations,
the extra latency is kind of boring and not adapted for real time stuff..

fx23 wrote:the solutions to external process are only

_DSP card (powercore/UA/wave ect) but processing only compatibles VSTs
_network spread computers(Fx teleport like)

but booth will increase latency as needing extra buffers (but will reduce cpu load).

of course a Raid solution will increase speed transferts but no impact on cpu.
good soundcard with good asio drivers also reduces Cpu load.

in any cases, about 80 percent of live process won't be affected and will remain same cpu load.
so for real time low latency process, there is no ideal solution execpt a beefy computer.
i own a pocoX8, also try fx teleport, and while cpu gain is very good especially for ie high reverbs computations,
the extra latency is kind of boring and not adapted for real time stuff..

Thanks for your reply. As for hardware that will introduce the least latency for a notebook/laptop, there would be four options: DSP onboard, DSP on PCMCIA card, DSP over wired media/protocol (USB, firewire, eSATA, etc).

Can you recommend a DSP that is a PCMCIA card, or specific hardware that fits any of these other solutions?

Very interesting to perform "network cloud processing" of effects etc with FX Teleport; but it would obviously be higher latency than the above.


Thanks,

Matt

if i well remember UAD has a PCMCIA option, Powercore is Firewire, i used one with pcmcia to FW.

it's a matter of taste,imo TC electronic is more neutral and transparent, very good for reverbs and dynamics.
UAD is maybe a bit more stable, add more 'character', coloring more the sound. depends on kind of music/uses you want. personally i needed transparent so went to poco, if you want warmth vintage digital emulation, maybe check more uad,
also tc has a very nice tubeTech comp emulation, it's the only one and very pricey..
don't know well waves but seems very good also, and there is also liquidmix for eq/comp i don't know...
so, hard to say.. try to listen demos with your own ears. sadly can test tc or uad, but waves exist as native
so can check. Check what plugins are offered on each platform and see the ones that will better match tour need.
but remember it will only computes the dedicaced plugins, not other vsts!
but they are usually very high quality fixed 48bits algorithms, better than most vsts, but implies a different
way of doing, never clip on input, wich is anyway, a good habit to have...

fx23 wrote:if i well remember UAD has a PCMCIA option, Powercore is Firewire, i used one with pcmcia to FW.

it's a matter of taste,imo TC electronic is more neutral and transparent, very good for reverbs and dynamics.
UAD is maybe a bit more stable, add more 'character', coloring more the sound. depends on kind of music/uses you want. personally i needed transparent so went to poco, if you want warmth vintage digital emulation, maybe check more uad,
also tc has a very nice tubeTech comp emulation, it's the only one and very pricey..
don't know well waves but seems very good also, and there is also liquidmix for eq/comp i don't know...
so, hard to say.. try to listen demos with your own ears. sadly can test tc or uad, but waves exist as native
so can check. Check what plugins are offered on each platform and see the ones that will better match tour need.
but remember it will only computes the dedicaced plugins, not other vsts!
but they are usually very high quality fixed 48bits algorithms, better than most vsts, but implies a different
way of doing, never clip on input, wich is anyway, a good habit to have...

Thanks for the thorough response. I understand, so they program their plugins to utilize the driver at a low level, so that processing takes place on the external processor. I appreciate this thorough and great insight, but to be honest, I am a hobbiest, not a professional.

Stepping back a bit, as for general sound processing... please confirm that the conclusion I am taking for this thread is that there is no solution to migrate the processing resources out of the on-board CPU for use by ableton live?

I guess my question then is... what is the purpose of an external/"off board" sound card? Simply different media bus input/outputs?

So... I'm kind of stuck not using this sony vaio vgn-FS660, with a Pentium M 740 single-core @ 1.73Ghz I just got given to me as my primary Live machine?


Thanks,

Matt

yes i confirm there is no way to 'external process' ableton own process, wich will always hit the cpu.

the advantage of external sound card is mostly better pre-amps/ AD convertors/more inouts and driver can reduce cpu load
(only for the sound output asio process, not ie live internal or vst sound processing). from what i experienced
can gain but less than 5-10percent. Most of internal soundcard have a descent quality to begin with, with asio4all however.. there are also hybrid systems audio card/dsp wich provide ie a reverb or gate comp processed by the sound
card. i don't know these products very well, if well remember saffire, tc electronic konnekts, Maudio NRV10, motu have now build in DSp you could check ..

branded wrote:
There's two ways to go about answering such a technical question: 1) With technical analysis, numbers, graphs, specifications; and 2) "Yes, it works because my computer is slow then, and isn't then."

Either is just as good


So thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. Which external card do you use?


Thanks,

Matt

I use a cheap M-Audio Firewire Solo. I need to upgrade because I don't have enough inputs anymore, but until then this works great for me.

fx23 wrote:yes i confirm there is no way to 'external process' ableton own process, wich will always hit the cpu.

the advantage of external sound card is mostly better pre-amps/ AD convertors/more inouts and driver can reduce cpu load
(only for the sound output asio process, not ie live internal or vst sound processing). from what i experienced
can gain but less than 5-10percent. Most of internal soundcard have a descent quality to begin with, with asio4all however.. there are also hybrid systems audio card/dsp wich provide ie a reverb or gate comp processed by the sound
card. i don't know these products very well, if well remember saffire, tc electronic konnekts, Maudio NRV10, motu have now build in DSp you could check ..

This is highly dependent on the set you're working with IMHO. Like I said earlier we have about 50 MIDI tracks, some Live instruments, some VST's, and about 15 audio tracks, and with this setup it takes a HUGE hit to performance if our firewire interface is not being used. In fact our template set has crashed on load up w/ no audio output, while it takes seconds to load up when the firewire device is being used. If we try to use our internal soundcard our set is completely unusable, usually it crashes before sound can even be output.

were you using asio4all?

here i compared a 32 Tracks heavy live set 20 midi/12 audio:
@256 samples.

_Tc electronic Konnekt 24D FW asio: Cpu 52 percent
_Korg Zero 8 FW Asio: Cpu 58 percent
_internal asio4all: 62 percent.

fx23 wrote:were you using asio4all?

here i compared a 32 Tracks heavy live set 20 midi/12 audio:
@256 samples.

_Tc electronic Konnekt 24D FW asio: Cpu 52 percent
_Korg Zero 8 FW Asio: Cpu 58 percent
_internal asio4all: 62 percent.

Doing this on mine and just using the instruments (no looping) and w/ my firewire device it's around 45% where if using the internal asio4all it glitches like crazy and the CPU load goes well over 100%... this is after waiting for it to load for 15 min.