Ableton Forum

This Post is about "Arranging" aka: writing a whole song, and what that's like for me in Live.

So, I had been a Logic user since 4.0. I had switched to Acid 3 for a while, because it was so quick to edit in. When Acid 4 came around, something was different. The Acid interface had become "chunky". It was harder to see where everything was, to slice it up, and arrange it quickly. It wasn't long before we stopped using Acid altogether. I moved back to Logic, but had other endless gripes. Eventually I ended up with Live, and was very excited to use a DAW that felt like a live instrument. It's fun, time-stretching is magic, and neat toys were a very clean approach even if it didn't sound like a real DAW. Live was fun.

I hate to say it, but I feel like there has been a problem for me with Live that I hadn't wanted to admit to yet. I find writing a whole song in Live to be excessively cumbersome. I like to slice up parts and arrange them as closely to the speed of my imagination as possible. When composing in the Arrange window of live, I often feel like I'm trudging through the thick mud of Acid 4 again. I also miss the elegant automation curves of other programs.

Then a couple of weeks ago I got hit with an even bigger problem; sound quality. I thought that Live sounded great (64-bit, yadayada, etc...) Then I had a conversation with a friend who's work I really respect, and he is a published producer. His crew uses Live for playing, well.. Live. When we started talking about composing dance music, he immediately switched gears and told me he would never choose it to compose with. I was a little dumbfounded. Then he explained to me how much he uses key-commands, and the quality of sound he gets from Logic 9. It took me a bit to get my head around it, but then I realized: this guy makes music almost eight hours every day. Recently his Mac died, and I was like, "Maybe you should try Live 8 on your PC. It's much better than the old versions". He tried it and was soon disinterested. I was again totally dumbfounded. I had invested a few years and more than a few hundred dollars on Live. I was a serial number carrying Live cult member. Live has saved me in many situations where other software just didn't want ot work, especially on-location recording. How had it not worked for him? Since he was stuck with PC for a while, he began using Cubase and has been totally enamored with it. Now, having started with Logic I'm not about to start playing around with Cubase (there are reasons), and it's tedious getting a Demo from Stienberg. I hate security keys/dongles with fervent passion. They waste a port, break, and get stolen. I once had my car broken into and the only thing they took was the unused demo Stienberg key that was on my work lanyard, hanging from the rearview.

So all this got me thinking. I had finished a few projects with Live, but I have about 400 unfinished pieces that I just never got past the loop/phrase stage in. I like a lot of these sketches, but why hadn't I finished more of them? Was it just me? A few weeks ago I curiously downloaded the demo of Presonus Studio One. Since I started becoming accustomed to it I've been blown away at the difference in both sound quality and speed. I should stop here to say that this is no commercial for Studio One. It has many little bugs and irritants that feel unfinished. It "hiccups" on me quite often. Those things aside, I immediately heard a BIG difference in the sound quality. The included plug-ins also sound totally pro. The reverbs and delays are smooooth. The mix has a certain quality of clearness and openness I didn't expect to miss in Live. It also has tons of functions that make editing much, much faster. I get it now. Live is really great, fun and powerful, but it's not a real DAW. Why is that? Why have we gone all the way to v8 when grandfather Logic is only in v9? Cubase is only in v6! Why don't the plugins that have "Hi-Quality" switches default to that, and have a switch on the interface instead of a sub-menu? How come we still have a crummy reverb and delay? Why do the level and clip meters behave inconsistently? Why does the Grand Piano instrument sound so flat compared to the pianos in Kontakt? Why does editing in the arrange window feel so slow and cumbersome?

I want to stick with Live, but since I've been so productive and impressed with the sound of another DAW I feel like I might only use it for gigging now. I hope the next version of Live will feel more fluid, have updated effects and instruments (thank you for fixing Operator btw), and have that "open" sound. The toys and tools are fun and amazing, but I feel like it's do laborious to write a whole song in Live. I want to know if anyone else here has had a similar experience. Are there people here who just use Live as a re-wire slave? Is there something I'm missing? I'll make a list of "issues" I have with Live soon and start looking them up here, but I honestly don't feel like using it after trying out a full-blown DAW.

dagon wrote:Why don't the plugins that have "Hi-Quality" switches default to that, and have a switch on the interface instead of a sub-menu? How come we still have a crummy reverb and delay? Why do the level and clip meters behave inconsistently? Why does the Grand Piano instrument sound so flat compared to the pianos in Kontakt? Why does editing in the arrange window feel so slow and cumbersome?

Because, in a live setting that extra bit of hi-quality sound is not worth the taxing of extra cpu.. therefore it's an option

crummy for certain scenarios.. great for other scenarios.. if you want better delay and reverb.. just get 3rd party stuff

can't answer the grand piano.. but you ahve to understand.. EIC2+Session Drums= $100 whereas Kontakt= $400

I feel your pain too. It´s hard to describe the problems you get with live once a project passes the play stage and advances to "production". Strange issues with timing and automation. Unclear visual representation of what´s going on, constant pressing of tab, no alias clips, strange automation editing behaviours, etc...

Please don´t call it Sound Quality, as this is not true. This just starts stupid discussions about null tests. Live can sound top notch. I use the Fabfilter PlugIns, this improved my mixes a lot. But this comes from the Workflow, not the algorithms.
I´m currently also testing Studio One. It´s internal PlugIns are better. It´s mixing and arrange Workflows are very good, and you tend to create a clearer mix. Routing is easier.
But at the moment I believe it´s not good enough in the beat/experimental areas. (Drum Racks & FX Racks are sth. I miss a lot)
Also it behaves not well with looping material or stuff that overlaps. (Midi/Audio Clips not starting or ending directly on a quantized measure, hard to explain). Resampling is also a Pita. Oh and no readable peak values without LevelMeter PlugIn...
Also it has audio clicks/pops or dropouts.
So Studio One is a big compitition but it´s not ready for me (Recording is far superior to live!).
Sonar seems to be very buggy and an awfull workflow, never tried to demo it...
Cubase/Nuendo is expensive/no demo and i have problems with the politics of a mac. So no Logic.

So yeah, creating songs in Live has to improve!
Maybe they should split the programs to Live & Studio. Both have their reasons and advantages.
They may utilise the same code base though...

You totally called out all the little bugs (especially freeze & loops), in Studio One. It even crashes often and doesn't have the awesome recovery that Live has. I also feel what you mean about the racks and tools in Live. I haven't been able to buy MFL yet, but hopefully it will start to replace Reaktor for me. Does MFL have a large component library yet?

I've just been so frustrated with the display in the arrange window of Live for so long. I also think you might be right about the sound of the built-in audio plug-ins as being the strong sonic part of Studio One. I do not want to hear about null tests or OS arguments either! What I do want to hear about is Ableton slowing it's pace a little bit on innovative devices now (not that it's unappreciated), and focus back to cleaning up the interface and workflow of editing. A broader list of key-connamds and a key-command editor would be really helpful. A command to bounce selections in place rather than whole track freeze or setting up a realtime resample track would cut production time drastically. If I may draw an analogy (that I'm sure will infuriate many here), I feel like live has an interface like windows '95 or Mac OS 9. I like they have kept it plain and I hate fake 3-d buttons & knobs, but it also feels like it's still been too much of a build up on top of Live 1.0 and not something that integrates all the new tools very well. Live is fantastic as a performance tool, and it does things well that are sorely missing from all of the others. Try as I might, I just can't dig working in the arrange window.

Yeah you call it. They should do less sexy marketing stuff and make Life easier again.
It wont backup their new sales, but keep their customers happy (and from leaving when the competition catches up).

I really start to believe that they should split the program. I use live in a DJing or Live use case completly different as when writing songs.
Right now it seems like it´s a half baked composing tool, or a bloated live tool.

kanuck wrote:

dagon wrote:Why don't the plugins that have "Hi-Quality" switches default to that, and have a switch on the interface instead of a sub-menu? How come we still have a crummy reverb and delay? Why do the level and clip meters behave inconsistently? Why does the Grand Piano instrument sound so flat compared to the pianos in Kontakt? Why does editing in the arrange window feel so slow and cumbersome?

Because, in a live setting that extra bit of hi-quality sound is not worth the taxing of extra cpu.. therefore it's an option

crummy for certain scenarios.. great for other scenarios.. if you want better delay and reverb.. just get 3rd party stuff

can't answer the grand piano.. but you ahve to understand.. EIC2+Session Drums= $100 whereas Kontakt= $400

Actually, I have a few other reverb plug-ins with drastically better sound quality that are so well written that they have little hit on my cpu. I use those for live performance instead of the Ableton reverb just fine. I just wish they were integrated as well as the Live one. This also doesn't address my issue with hidden functions. EQ-Eight could start in Low quality mode, but wouldn't it be great if it had some kind of indicator or button on the panel to remind you? I get frustrated when I remember to do this only after 20 minutes of working to get it to sound right. I also believe that since computers are getting exponentially faster the quality of devices should default to high and have the option for an economic live mode. I mostly work this way already. Even though I like gritty sounds, I usually resample HQ effects into loops for performance already.

BTW, in the late summer you can usually get Komplete for $399. I have found that I almost never use the EIC and never use session drums, I wish I would have passed on buying them. Too many fully developed sound signatures, and not enough building blocks to start on your own sound. I actually find navigating the EIC weird too. Where is everything?

sanosdole wrote: Maybe they should split the programs to Live & Studio. Both have their reasons and advantages.
They may utilise the same code base though...

This could get very, very messy. I love having both options in one program. It makes composing parts for performance great, and I don't have to switch programs to do simple functions. I might point out that this is the most frustrating thing about programs like Logic and Final Cut Pro. I'd like to stay IN my project when I'm working... ON my project. I know Ableton can do this if they consult with a conceptual designer. Engineers are the backbone of executing any project, but it can be so difficult to see the locusts coming when you are busy doing the hard labor, looking down and sowing seeds. As a professional artist this is why I hire engineers, carpenters, and business management people to make my work happen. They also have the benefit of being employed by my creative vision, and I no longer have to focus on the details in which I do not specialize.

This could get very, very messy.

Yeah this not an easy subject. Maybe split modes for the UI only. I don´t get paid for designing Live, so I don´t put the necessary thought for such decissions into it.
But there are substantial differences between preparing & performing a Live Show and producing a song. What I do while producing has nearly no relation and is not easily transfered to a Live Project. But this is my way of doing things.
Specialised Tools always have an advantage over general tools. No compromises.

I love having both options in one program

I do like that also. But the workflows are different, so you don´t require them at the same time.
E.g. if you have a mode for performing a live show, one for preparing and composing, you would start at the composing mode having the options of creating stuff and configuring your UI. When performing you get your UI and project structure locked and save.

As said in the beginning this is not an easy subject, ask 100 Users and you´ll get 100 different workflows.

I too find live quite difficult to compose full songs, and tend to end up noodling around for hours with no end result other than a bunch of midi loops.

One major problem for me is the fact that I cant record controller motions to clips in session view. Its a major creativity killer not being able to have clips play back the way they will sound in arrangement view in order to jam along and create complementary clips on other tracks in session view. Plus its a nightmare to then record the automation in arrangement view and copy and paste it to the places where I want it.

One other thing that narks me about live is the fact that you cant take snapshots of the projects settings and then control the transitions from one snapshot to another. Imagine being able to tweak all the various devices, mixer and instruments in a different way for verse, chorus and outro etc, and then being able to recall them at any point during recording for live composing. I know kapture is available, but you can only recall them instantly as opposed to being able to control the transition from the current settings to the snapshot ones, so it sounds a bit too sudden. Plus it requires max 4 live which is quite expensive.

Live for me is like a 3 foot tall decorator who's scared to climb ladders. He'll come up with an amazing colour scheme for you house in a very short time, but will then have to call someone else in to reach the ceilings.

majicmonk wrote:Live for me is like a 3 foot tall decorator who's scared to climb ladders. He'll come up with an amazing colour scheme for you house in a very short time, but will then have to call someone else in to reach the ceilings.