the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

[trevox]

i am not cheating if I use MIDI tracks, because it is electronic music and ONLY in electronic music a sequencer is used as a musical instrument. That is why only MIDI is music (in a sequencer). If you play audio tracks on stage it is like cheating the audience, because audio is sound. What (maybe) you don't understand is that i am not talking of "recording my music in a DAW". I am talking of the sequencer, used as an instrument.

Hang on a second - since when is a sequencer a musical instrument? Surely music has to come out of a musical instrument and no sound comes out of a sequencer. Musical instruments are the devices that sequencers send MIDI messages to in order to make sound. Sequencers, in effect, replace the role of musician. So in electronic music, here are the roles (well within your limited understanding of electronic music composition). Composer/writer creates MIDI file. Sequencer acts as the musician and plays the MIDI instruments. MIDI devices controlled by the sequencer that generate sound are the instruments.

Seriously, this really is electronic music 101 and if you play a pre-recorded sequence, you are cheating an audience by your definition. You can get on your high horse and say that the sound is being generated live, but people who don't like electronic music could equally argue that if there is no musician playing the music, it is not real music.

[rote fahne]

i am not cheating if I use MIDI tracks, because it is electronic music and ONLY in electronic music a sequencer is used as a musical instrument. That is why only MIDI is music (in a sequencer). If you play audio tracks on stage it is like cheating the audience, because audio is sound. What (maybe) you don't understand is that i am not talking of "recording my music in a DAW". I am talking of the sequencer, used as an instrument ON STAGE.

When you play a prerecorded midi file live on stage then you are cheating, cause you are not making the music that very moment, you are only playing the music that you have recorded before.

If I put a record player on stage and Im going to play the 4 movements of say a Brahms symphonie, then I dont think the audience will feel like I am making music.

So the arbitrary here is the amount of manipulation of musical material per unit of time that is the criterium for deciding whether I am playing music on stage, or making music on stage.

I am talking about performing as a creative process live on stage.

If my activity is say 1 active modification per 8 bars, I mean a modification I perform with some of my body parts, then I think I could still consider myself in the state of making music, instead of playing it.

But again, this treshold is arbitrary.

I dont care if the pre-recorded material is midi or audio, thats irrelevant.

The only "ethical" issue here is whether the pre-recorded material is yours or not, really.

[rote fahne]

I potentially could change these (musical) events right now, so "potentially" it is still music.

Yeh yeh, like walking around on the market with the intention to steal somebodies wallet, but as long as you havent done anything, nobody can call you a thief, but then the other way around.

Typical Italian. lol.

I mean, the moment you feel somebody might find you cheating, you still have the possibility to change quickly some events, and thus creating music.

And then again, you could also "potentially" change the audio events, so you, again, dont make any sense.

[docprosper]

Wrong again. Been to the US much?

judging by his reply... nope, not ever. if anything he's been to New York or some other over sized over populated place that represents 3% of what the U.S. is actually like.

I'm guessing his exposure to the US was limited to a quick pop down to the shore:


This mix set in fact inspired him to create his quintessential music-vs-audio dogma, thus propelling the world into the FUTURE OF MUZAK!

[9V]

The Topics of Italian-American Movies

When most people think of Italian-Americans they think of the Mafia. The second theme that is popular is religion; even the most hardcore gangster shows respect for religion. Finally, the portrayal of the culture is also very commonplace.

“Your family is the center of your being.” This characterizes many Italian-American films. It is a type of Tribalism. Typically, the women, the mother, daughters, and other women of the family, are in the kitchen talking. The men are usually very comfortable in the living room talking and acting macho.

Code of conduct in every Italian-American movie is treating one’s family right. A common source of conflict emerges when one of the characters does something that the family does not agree with. The respect for family is very important.

Most often we see the Italian-American male depicted as a gangster.

Italian-American woman is usually portrayed in very negative and derogatory stereotypical ways. Their role is usually to provide pleasures for men, either through food or sexuality. On screen , Italian-American women scream and curse but do not fight back effectively, legally or otherwise; they are always defined in their relation to men: fathers, sons, brothers, husbands, lovers. The Italian-American woman is often compared to the fair-skinned blonde and most often the Italian-American woman comes out as a vixen. Italian-American women are also often made into clownish figures, overweight, incredibly stupid, vulgar, rude, and vociferous. She is dressed extremely tacky and obsessed with cooking. Clothes play a remarkably important rule in showing Italians of any gender as incapable of true “style” or class, unable to dress appropriately even if they did make it to the higher rungs. This is ironic, because Italy is one of the leading countries in fashion.

Food is a huge issue in every Italian-American movie. Food is often used as a device to identify the ethnicity of a movie. Italian food in film becomes a “colorful” and unmistakable of things Italian apposed to mob life. But it is pasta we find all over the screen, in an imagery made famous by The Godfather and continued in Goodfellas: gangsters amorously stirring deep red meat sauces between hits, and as blood is splattered everywhere, red pasta sauce explodes on the screen too.

Italian-Americans are often shown as being extremely racist like in A Bronx Tale, where the Italian-Americans beat up a couple of black kids that are riding their bikes through the neighborhood.

[9V]

Hang on a second - since when is a sequencer a musical instrument?

Since electronic music was invented, i guess. With MIDI (1983) for sure: sequencers, in effect, replace the role of musician. Composer/writer creates MIDI file. Sequencer acts as the musician and plays the MIDI instruments. MIDI devices controlled by the sequencer that generate sound are the instruments.

You can get on your high horse and say that the sound is being generated live, but people who don't like electronic music could equally argue that if there is no musician playing the music, it is not real music.

It's not important what they think, since I play electronic music, and I follow these rules, not the rules of an acoustic performer. Here is an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXD6Gtinvbc

[crumhorn]

to paraphrase

10: 9V - Audio Is Not Music because it cant be played at a slower tempo or transposed to another key
20: H20nly - But these things can be done with audio using Live's elastic audio algorithms
30: 9V - That doesn't count because Audio Is Not Music
40: Innocent bystander (scratching head) - explain to me again why Audio Is Not Music?
50: GOTO 10

[9V]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JhuOicPFZY

i destroy you, i destroy you all, i am american... what's that? maccaroni?! What's this crap? I am american, i don't eat maccaroni! Red Wine? I don't drink red wine! You, know I am american! Americans don't drink wine, don't eat pasta! Americans eat marmelade, this is america! Youghurt, mostard... That's why americans always win against indians and apaches! Because they drink milk! Have you ever seen a pissed american? Never! Americans are cool, they are strong. You cannot fight against americans, they eat marmelade! Woe, maccaroni! I destroy you, i am american! Why are you watchin me, maccaroni? You look like a worm! Look: this is america, see? youghurt, marmelade, mostard... The mostard! Whatsamericayeah... some milk... see? Healthy food, nice! Maccaroni, puah... Maccaroni: you provoked me? Then I destroy you, i am american! I eat you, macaroni! The milk for the cat, the yoghurt for the mouse, the mustard to kill the beetles. Macaroni... I am american! worm: I eat you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8WuLcncbBM

[9V]

to paraphrase

10: 9V - Audio Is Not Music because it cant be played at a slower tempo or transposed to another key
20: H20nly - But these things can be done with audio using Live's elastic audio algorithms
30: 9V - That doesn't count because Audio Is Not Music
40: Innocent bystander (scratching head) - explain to me again why Audio Is Not Music?
50: GOTO 10

to paraphrase

10: 9V for me only MIDI events are "music" in a sequencer What do you think about?
20: you eat pasta, sing "o sole mio" and talk moving hands. You are not like us, you are an italian troll!
30: 9V i guess you should respect other cultures, and not to treat foreign people like american movies racist cliche. This is an international forum, not an american pub.
40: you antiamerican commy troll! Ban him, he is against USA!
50: 9V ?!
60: IF 30=30 then GOTO 20.
70: RUN STOP RESTORE (audio is not music but sound)

[9V]

I'm guessing his exposure to the US was limited to a quick pop down to the shore

typical "dialog" between 9V and american users here: http://youtu.be/Dzo-wsrCnRs

ITALIAN TAXI DRIVER: are you from new york?
AMERICAN TOURIST: no, no new york, i'm from dallas. You know dallas?
ITALIAN TAXI DRIVER:ah, dallas... "daje" (trad: "worst than ever")
AMERICAN TOURIST: you said "dallas daje", what you mean "dallas daje"?!
ITALIAN TAXI DRIVER: no, nothing, it's something mine... related to my family...
AMERICAN TOURIST: No! You said that!
ITALIAN TAXI DRIVER: (trying to digress) ok, after San Peter what would you like to go? Restaurant? Hotel?
AMERICAN TOURIST: I want to know: why "dallas daje"?
ITALIAN TAXI DRIVER: no, nothing... it's only because every day, every night... my family on tv... watching dallas
AMERICAN TOURIST: So you don't like dallas?!
ITALIAN TAXI DRIVER: no, it is not that i don't like it... it's that "mi rompe" (trad: it breaks my balls)
AMERICAN TOURIST: I don't understand... what you mean "mi rompe"?
ITALIAN TAXI DRIVER: I mean... why here in italy we have to watch dallas? Do we italians oblige you in USA to watch something like "Porto Gruaro", "Gallarate"?... Why do you have to break our "coglioni" (bollocks) with this crap?!
AMERICAN TOURIST: You said "coglione", i know what it means! It means "bollocks"! You said me "bollock"!
ITALIAN TAXI DRIVER: ah, you understand "coglione" then...
AMERICAN TOURIST WIFE:But you said "coglione"!
ITALIAN TAXI DRIVER:Yes i said that... but it's because your husband is a little bit wrangler...
AMERICAN TOURIST: And you are a bastard! Listen to me! You're a bastard!
ITALIAN TAXI DRIVER:Now listen to me, american... You americans always say "bastard". You know why? Because you have a poor language. Now I explain what we italians could say to you (1 minute CENSORED for american users)

[crumhorn]

Yes but I was replying on topic. I have never called you a troll or insulted your nationality so I'll kindly ask you not to mentioning such things when replying to my posts.

[9V]

So, the Italian driver was rude and repeatedly lied and spoke under his breath, and then went on a rant on how he is apparently "forced" to watch Dallas. He then ends the conversation with a one minute rant that you felt the need to censor. And of course, he did all of this to a paying customer.

That is why i believe it is a cultural gap, you (as american) cannot understand our humour (that is a commedy, not a drama: people in italy laughs about that, because the taxi driver is a good man, not rude). You think it is something against american people, etc. but it isn't! It's italian humour. SO, it's a cultural gap... but you should understand this is an international forum, IMO. I noticed some american users act like the rest of the world lives and think like in USA. So, when a foreign user writes something that in USA is kind of a "taboo" (e.g. things against the president, against the soldiers, some words etc.) he invokes the ban for that user. This is my case, for instance. An american guy called me "racist" (?!!!), even if i am an anarchist. This is a paradox, and the reason has to be found in a cultural/language gap.

[9V]

as I wrote before, american film makers believe mocking foreign people is funny and friendly, but it isn't of course. No one laughs, only americans. It is very insulting, and unfortunately all that american crap is distribued all over the world. But: if a non-american film maker "dares" to "friendly" mock american culture, he is BANNED at once in USA. (in an international forum, american users call him "troll")...

[docprosper]

9V is on the ropes with his nonsensical music debate, so it's time to talk film/Italy/Zappa/banning for a while - the old bait & switch. Have we hit 50 pages yet?

9V, just admit that you are a closet Dj Pauly D fan and we can all get on with our lives. I miss 3Phase, and least he knew something about music/Live and knew when to STFU and move on from a thread.
YouTube

[9V]

Do you realize how hypocritical you are being? You've linked several videos of Italians mocking Americans with various comedy routines (like the "macaroni" one), yet you say it's insulting when Americans do the same? You say that I, as an American, can not understand the humor in your poking fun at Americans, yet you can't take it when an American plays off a stereotype a little?

Look, if i thought it was a question of misunderstanding because of cultural/language gaps, now i am sure about it! "Mocking americans"?!! The movie is called "an american in Rome" and it is pro america, it is about the american dream. Nando Moriconi is a young Italian living in the early '50s Roma. He is completely crazy for everything that comes from the States. He tries to speak American-English (the most funny ever), to wear like he thinks Americans do, to walk like John Wayne (!), trying to eat cornflakes with ketchup... His life is a complete parody of the real American way of life, which he couldn't ever get. Nando's dream is to go to the USA. To get it he goes to the Coliseum and threats to suicide if American Embassy don't give him the visa. But at this point Nando is very well known as a 'crazy-for-USA' boy and the troubles he provoked in the past, couldn't help him. Alberto Sordi (the actor) received Kansas City Honorary Citizenship because of this movie. As you can see, no-one in this film is "mocking america", it is a movie about italian fans of USA and american dream, soon after the WW2. This is italian humour, nothing to do with all those ugly USA propaganda racist movies against other cultures i quoted before (i made several examples).