MIDI timing and latency correlation

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Hexdump
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MIDI timing and latency correlation

Post by Hexdump » Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:39 pm

Ok i'm posting this thread to replace an old one which had a somewhat misleading title.

So here's the issue that's been striking me and also others who are triggering outboard gear via midi: Since the very beginning (v1.0) there has been a problem with midi timing (midi clock + now also midi notes etc.) that seems somehow related to the soundcard latency, meaning that the bigger the latency the more screwed up the midi timing gets... i dont know if its hardware related (most people with this problem use a RME product). However, i tried using different midi interfaces without any luck. You can easily test wether you are affected by doing this:
  1. Choose the biggest buffer there is for your soundcard
  2. Adjust overall latency accordingly (btw, this has no influence for me - different problem :)
  3. Set up a midi track and route it to some external gear
  4. For monitoring purposes either route your external audio back into Live or connect it directly to some outboard mixer (shouldnt make any difference)
  5. Setup and play some midi clip (e.g. some 1/4th metronome) at a low speed(<100bpm)
  6. Compare with Live's internal metronome (optional)
  7. Feel the whacky timing insulting your ears :)
It would be interesting to know who else is having this problem. So please test it and report your specs and findings here.

My specs:

Dell Inspiron 4100 Laptop
RME DSP Multiface (Cardbus)
Midiman Midisport 2x2 USB
WinXP (without SP2)
Ableton Live 4.1

Thank you!
Last edited by Hexdump on Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Gravity
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Re: MIDI timing and latency correlation

Post by Gravity » Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:48 pm

Hexdump wrote:[*]For monitoring purposes either route your external audio back into Live or connect it directly to some outboard mixer
well, it does, because if you route it through live you get the full soundcard latency in effect as well.

I haven't tested what you suggest above, but Live sometimes adjusts for latency where there is none, which is kinda confusing...

Hexdump
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Re: MIDI timing and latency correlation

Post by Hexdump » Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:10 am

Gravity wrote:well, it does, because if you route it through live you get the full soundcard latency in effect as well.

I haven't tested what you suggest above, but Live sometimes adjusts for latency where there is none, which is kinda confusing...
i'm not talking about the (constant) delay that is caused by latency. my problem causes midi signals to 'flutter', almost as if there was only 1 midi update being sent per buffer cycle. hence, the audio delay caused by latency is not relevant in that particular case.

mexique1
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Post by mexique1 » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:23 am

same issue here... come on abletons, let's solve this problem now, i've bought live almost exclusively for midi purpose, and this is a BIG problem :(
RS7000 >> Live 4.1.4 >> Virus B
Desktop : Win XP Pro SP1, E-MU 1212M
Laptop : Win XP Pro SP2, M-Audio FW410

Hexdump
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Post by Hexdump » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am

mexique1 wrote:same issue here... come on abletons, let's solve this problem now, i've bought live almost exclusively for midi purpose, and this is a BIG problem :(
thx for reporting in!

looks like the problem is not related a specific hardware. i'm somewhat forced to blame the abletons for a releasing a whacky midi implementation then - unless i'm really overlooking something... PLEASE PLEASE ABLETON can u give us some statement?

mexique1
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Post by mexique1 » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:50 am

sometimes i think this is an ansolveable problem, due to a hardware/software limitation :(

is this possible ?

i would really lose a lot of time if i have to export/import the midi clips...
RS7000 >> Live 4.1.4 >> Virus B
Desktop : Win XP Pro SP1, E-MU 1212M
Laptop : Win XP Pro SP2, M-Audio FW410

Hexdump
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Post by Hexdump » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:56 am

mexique1 wrote:sometimes i think this is an ansolveable problem, due to a hardware/software limitation :(

is this possible ?

i would really lose a lot of time if i have to export/import the midi clips...
i'm quite sure it is a software issue because other programs (like logic audio) are ROCK solid midi/audio wise on exactly the same hardware... :(

mexique1
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Post by mexique1 » Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:08 am

ok... i think i'm gonna test with cubase (i have a VST 4)

thanx
RS7000 >> Live 4.1.4 >> Virus B
Desktop : Win XP Pro SP1, E-MU 1212M
Laptop : Win XP Pro SP2, M-Audio FW410

nominal
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Post by nominal » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:19 pm

We are running:

Kurzweil K2500 master --> LIVE --> MC202 and JUNO60 synths


Triggering the MC202 or the JUNO60 with the K2500 is the best way to write a synth line. But currently it is impossible for us to do so because of the latency.

There seems to be no solution, I can't understand how such a great product cannot handle this simple situation, I feel like we are missing something.

We have run this situation on the following computers:

1. G4 iBook 500MHz
2. Dual 1GHz G5 Tower
3. Dell Pentium M 1.4GHz

all with the same results

We previously ran the same setup on a clamshell iBook 333MHz and DP3.11 with absolutely rock solid MIDI performance.

So what gives? PLEASE LETS HEAR SOMETHING FROM ABLETON ABOUT THIS. Are we going crazy?
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Implexicon
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Post by Implexicon » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:38 pm

Same here on a Pb 1.25hz + fw410...
And it really sux for such a great peace of soft.
I'll too hope it'll be fixed in a very near future :?

olafmol
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Post by olafmol » Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:18 am

in this thread there is talk about 2 different "problems" : latency and midi timing fluctuations... please keep them seperated..

it's a fact that Live currently doesn't compensate for midi latency .... you can compensate for audio latency though .... i didn't experience midi timing fluctuations myself, but i will test it out some more..it could be something that is introduced by a certain midi interface, or maybe a plugin with audio latency somewhere in your live audio chain?

Olaf

nominal
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Post by nominal » Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:33 pm

you are right, let's keep them separate. Our main problem is with latency, it's impossible to work with.

Although there is sync timing instability, it is not as serious as the latency problem for us.

good distinction
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chymera
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Post by chymera » Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:48 pm

olafmol wrote:it's a fact that Live currently doesn't compensate for midi latency Olaf
erm... there is an option to set the midi output and input latency in preferences? I use it... or have I not got your drift?

nominal
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Post by nominal » Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:12 pm

if it's true what you say that this is a problem with Live, I'm assuming that they will have to address this issue quickly, since this is a fundamental use for any MIDI capable software.

I'm surprised there are not more people talking about this.
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louZ
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Post by louZ » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:07 am


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