Ableton Forum

I posted a few days ago about my frustration with Automap. Helpful posters persuaded me to abandon Automap and just work with basic templates on my Novation Zero SL MkII. I'm trying to customize my Zero to control Ableton.
Original thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=187775

Now, still frustrated. Blocked Automap, so that's not in the picture. Got the template editor, studied the manual, spent the last few hours exploring all the menu options. Tried lots of shit. Still getting weird results.

Specific question:

I programmed template #21. But when I try to run it--when I touch any one control-- the Zero switches to template #32, the pre-wired Ableton template. This is the one I'm trying to avoid. Why? Because template #32 won't let me map some controls to different things in my Live set. HOW DO I MAKE THE ZERO STICK TO ONE TEMPLATE??? How do I stop the Ableton template from taking over every time? What am I missing?

I'm also having trouble getting the MIDI mapping in Ableton to see my button pushes. The mappings show up (when in MIDI mapping mode--the blueness overlay), but then they don't work. I think this is related to the template switching, but can't be sure.

Suggestions?

Why is this so hard?

Steve

Pressing the encoder turns preset selection on and off. Make sure you are in it when choosing a preset and out of it when you begin mappings.

The Ableton preset Should allow you to map things still. If not, I'd go with one of the random midi templates.

A more advanced technique is to map a button that switches between templates. It is my latest favorite feature.

I'd suggest:
a. Learning how to edit mappings from within the controller (without using software. The manual is pretty inspiring btw)
b. Learning what each of the controls in the Ableton template are actually mapped as.

If you know what they are mapped to, you will be aware that those specific control numbers in their specific channel probably do that function. And therefore, if making new settings, you'll want to make it of something other than that control number and channel.

If you do use the Ableton template, keep in mind that it won't be mappable unless you have 'Remote' turned ON in midi preferences for the mkii.

Also, with Ableton, there is mapping within Live, but midi 'learn' functions (like Automap uses) won't function because there is no cc# to learn from.

Try my two suggestions, maybe you'll become a midi master!

Yur2, thanks for the suggestions.

I'm not using Automap at all. I do have Remote selected, for in and out, in the preferences.

I discovered that the Ableton template uses channel 16. Otherwise looks like normal CC controls. Anybody know if channel 16 commands some special function in Live?

NEW EXPERIMENT: Since the last post I tried deleting completely the Ableton (#32) and Automap (#33) templates (using the editor and then bulk dumps), rebooted and GUESS WHAT? The thing insists on using template #32, even though it now is essentially an empty template.

I forced it to use another template, finally. I can do mappings now. But now the Zero does not reflect the button states or fader levels--which was the whole point of getting this expensive piece of gear in the first place!

Any insights, suggestions, or theories?

Steve

Edit the Ableton template. Change anything that you want to remap to a different channel.

The script that is used to translate messages between Ableton and the Novation device is apparently using chn 16.

You should be able to acquire the template back from the site or something.

Also, there is an option to select which template loads when you turn the device on.

hey steve!
did you ever solve this problem? i have the same issue. ableton is constantly making the SL change to preset 32 even though i replaced the ableton preset with an employ one.

i then saved my own default template to 32, which would be fine, but i want to use the template grouping to switch between 3 templates and it never goes from 31 to 32.

thanks,
rocky!

rockyleon wrote:hey steve!
did you ever solve this problem? i have the same issue. ableton is constantly making the SL change to preset 32 even though i replaced the ableton preset with an employ one.

i then saved my own default template to 32, which would be fine, but i want to use the template grouping to switch between 3 templates and it never goes from 31 to 32.

thanks,
rocky!

You have to disable remoteSL control surface (leave In & Out as it is) in Ableton preferences. Then you can change the startup template number in global settings.

On my Remote SL MKii anyway, there are plenty of unassigned knobs that you can assign to anything while using the Ableton template.
I'm surprised anyone would have a problem with the template? it's thorough integration is one reason why Push doesn't have the bling factor for me that it does for most.

Well..integration is far from ideal. Automapping only 8 knobs per bank instead of 16 is a huge waste of resources. Overriding the default mapping I wouldn't call integration.

digIntail wrote:Well..integration is far from ideal. Automapping only 8 knobs per bank instead of 16 is a huge waste of resources. Overriding the default mapping I wouldn't call integration.

Right, the 8 other knobs can be used for whatever you want. No need to override the template. Live's whole set up revolves around 8 knobs, hardly an issue on Novations side, the fader and Rack control is there with roughly the same integration as Ableton's own Push... I'm not sure what more you would expect?

In general 100% integration of plug ins and control surfaces has always been mediocre at best, unless you think 8 preset common controls is great.
NI's Maschine and Keyboards, Ableton's, Korgs, Novation Automap etc.....

I've got a Slate Rave MTi2 ordered for tweaking plug ins, tired of waiting for control surfaces to somehow work with 200+ parameter soft synths.
Live with Live, 8 knobs is fine, but I hear all of you about controller integration, it's never been more than so so.

Afaik you can use 8 pots "freely" but you can't use them to control any automapped parameter because the script is forcing the default order. The only option left is to use them to control VST plugins and with Automap there's no need for that. I don't blame Novation for that.

digIntail wrote:Afaik you can use 8 pots "freely" but you can't use them to control any automapped parameter because the script is forcing the default order. The only option left is to use them to control VST plugins and with Automap there's no need for that. I don't blame Novation for that.

I think there's a bit of oddity here inherent in the 'automatic' mapping the Ableton template does. I mean in terms of communication about it in this thread etc.

With Automap enabled on the SL you're not getting DAW control and Novation is controlling the wrapped Automap plug ins.

The Live template doesn't use Automap, no wrapped plug ins etc. It simply uses Lives control surface support like Push etc. does. So you get the 8 Rack knobs anytime you select a Rack, mapped to the 8 endless encoders/pots.

With the second set of knobs and buttons you can old school MIDI map them to anything you want to.

I don't get how that's limiting? The fact that the SL will map the first 8 parameters in any plug in is cool, but I don't think it's much use in anything with more than 8 parameters. I always thought that was more like leftover functionality from when the Live template sucked.

Machinesworking wrote: With the second set of knobs and buttons you can old school MIDI map them to anything you want to.

As I already said, you can't map them to any parameter which is automatically mapped by control surface script and practically all of them are. You're left with not much choice.

Machinesworking wrote: I don't get how that's limiting? The fact that the SL will map the first 8 parameters in any plug in is cool, but I don't think it's much use in anything with more than 8 parameters. I always thought that was more like leftover functionality from when the Live template sucked.

You've answered your question. I guess having only 8 controls (without remapping them in every new project) is fine if you mainly use presets or controlling effects. But it is far from enough for sound designing purpose.

Well, within non-macro devices, the controller has page up and down buttons. So the 'sound design', although limited to 8 parameters at a time, still gives you access to about 64 parameters on most of the native devices.

For vsts, there is sort of a catch, although it has been improved upon since 9.5. You had to group a vst in order to save the layout of accessible 'configure' parameters of a vst. Still, it is pretty annoying that you cannot rename them. You'll be tearing your hair out figuring out some default namings of vst parameters.

If a vst allows for it, one can take it a step further and instead do midi assign from within a vst. You won't get the naming (unless you make a layout in your Remote with general names and apply those cc's across all your assignable vsts) but vsts are quite responsive to this method When they actually support it. Of cours, you also have to deal with the confusion of whether your automation is Ableton or midi cc automation.

If I were to go that second route, I'd make an entire layout just for synths. Then edit a button that lets me switch between 'synth' and 'Ableton' presets (this is doable), and make sure the presets in the controller each has distinct midi channel (I think you can even use distinct midi ports).

What would greatly enhance navigation is diving buttons for going inside racks or moving between devices. You can use an entirely different controller for that, or if you have instant go-to synths you need to jump to, you can midi map the title bar of that synth and control it in a heartbeat.

But my frustration was, I had Remote on, And control surfaces on, and I used to be able to simply map the second row of knobs to any device. For some reason, in 9.2 it completely cock-blocked any mapping unless I switched midi channels entirely. I have not tried in 9.5 yet to see if this has been improved. I've been playing too much street fighter instead of messing with Live

Edit: after more thinking, I think I was mostly having the trouble with midi assign within vsts. And I did have it resolved I think by sending the knobs through the other port (since the control surface script uses one of the ports for its own purposes). I haven't been using that controller very much lately so my memory is kind of off.

yur2die4 wrote:Well, within non-macro devices, the controller has page up and down buttons. So the 'sound design', although limited to 8 parameters at a time, still gives you access to about 64 parameters on most of the native devices.

Yes.Controlling the simplest synth requires scrolling through 5 pages within arrangement that you'll probably dislike. In that case it's much faster doing everything with mouse.The irony is 8 knobs + 16 buttons stays there unutilized. It's a pity because I love Ableton and Max devices.

yur2die4 wrote: For vsts, there is sort of a catch, although it has been improved upon since 9.5. You had to group a vst in order to save the layout of accessible 'configure' parameters of a vst. Still, it is pretty annoying that you cannot rename them. You'll be tearing your hair out figuring out some default namings of vst parameters....

I know people had problems with Novation Automap in the past but the latest version works great (so far). I'm actually pretty amazed with it.