Ableton Forum

OK, these are probably dumb questions, but the manual, Ab live 4 power, and Google didn't give me the answers I needed, so here I am!

I am trying to get myself set up with some good source material for acoustic drums. BFD, DFH, Battery, utonic, etc... but honestly, I like the simplicity of Impulse, especially since people on the forum have figured out how to use multiple instances of it (and thus more sample slots). Oh, and I own it, which makes my wife much happier... the other options are around $200 or more! OK, the questions...

1. Drum sampler vsts all seem to have the capibility of using mulitple samples for velocity... I think this means that they use slightly different wav files for different intensity hits, and therefore more expressive sound. Can Impulse do this, or when I am adusting the velocity am I really just adjusting volume? (And does this really matter?)

2. I've found a ton of free, decent hits online, but they are all 16 bit. I want to record at 24, because that seems to be the best way. Should I find better quality hits to match the bit depths of my projects, or again, does this even matter?

3. I'd love to just spend the $34 bucks at trackteam audio and get Beatbox, but one thing is holding me back is that I have not heard anyone specifically mention the quality of the acoustic kits. In the demo, there is really only one useable set (for my purposes) from the 5 or 6 iyou can try out. Anyone have an opinion on the other acoustic kits included in the full version?


Sorry about the long post, just thought I'd throw these out and maybe get the opinions of some more experienced live users than myself.

Thanks!

1. Drum sampler vsts all seem to have the capibility of using mulitple samples for velocity... I think this means that they use slightly different wav files for different intensity hits, and therefore more expressive sound. Can Impulse do this, or when I am adusting the velocity am I really just adjusting volume? (And does this really matter?)

dont think the impulse is capable of multiple velocity layers.

2. I've found a ton of free, decent hits online, but they are all 16 bit. I want to record at 24, because that seems to be the best way. Should I find better quality hits to match the bit depths of my projects, or again, does this even matter?

Its your music. can you hear a difference, does it bother you, remember 99% of the world is still purchasing 16/44 music. if so get 24 bit samples.

3. I'd love to just spend the $34 bucks at trackteam audio and get Beatbox, but one thing is holding me back is that I have not heard anyone specifically mention the quality of the acoustic kits. In the demo, there is really only one useable set (for my purposes) from the 5 or 6 iyou can try out. Anyone have an opinion on the other acoustic kits included in the full version?

as the name implies its more of a beatbox style collection, not much accoustic action going on there, lots of uses for hip hop, D & B, electro, techno, glitch, IDM type stuff. definately cool stuff if these genres interest you. Travelbox by TTA is all accoustic and it rocks hard, seems like this one fits your style the best. Check out the demo for this one

jamie

james- thanks, I'll check out the travelbox demo.

"the whatever sounds right" thing isn't too helpful... I'd rather get some opinions of more experienced songwriters on their standards for acoustic drum samples. I'm trying to inform my concept of what "sounds right" when it comes to digital recording. I do appreciate the idea, though... it all comes down to personal preference. I get that.

Anybody else? If I want to do Acoustic drums right, do I need a separate sampler... battery, BFD, etc.?

Thanks!

I would be hard pressed to be able to tell any difference between 16 or 24 bit drum hits. If there is it would be so negligible it's not worth thinking about. I think you will do just fine with them.

So it sounds like the 16 bit thing isn't too big of a deal. I know for a fact I couldn't tell the difference, but I'm new enough I wouldn't know what to look for. Thanks for the responses.

So do you guys who program realistic drums find that Impulse works for you, or have you felt the need to replace it with something else?

EEkevin wrote:
Anybody else? If I want to do Acoustic drums right, do I need a separate sampler... battery, BFD, etc.?

Thanks!

You definitely need velocity (volume) for good acoustic simulation. So yes that matters.
Th bottom line is it helps to know how to play drums so that you can mimic the"feel" or for lack of a better word, the "proper" techniques.
Like, as an example, you wouldn't have the hi hats going if you were doing a drum roll unless it was a "closed" hit as if to simulate your foot doing the work while you roll.
This matters more than what sampler you use. Any good velocity sensitive sampler will do the trick, Battery, Impulse etc.

EEKevin, think you could point me towards those samples you were talking about?

anamexis wrote:EEKevin, think you could point me towards those samples you were talking about?

check your pm. in particular, I've had good luck with the ns_kit7 (free) from http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/.

Pharoah, thanks for the tips. I agree, sounds are second to arrangement when it comes to realistic drums. I use a lot of hats, I wish Impulse had assignable choke groups, rather than just two slots that could be linked. Better than none, I guess!

EEkevin wrote:

anamexis wrote:EEKevin, think you could point me towards those samples you were talking about?

check your pm. in particular, I've had good luck with the ns_kit7 (free) from http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/.

Pharoah, thanks for the tips. I agree, sounds are second to arrangement when it comes to realistic drums. I use a lot of hats, I wish Impulse had assignable choke groups, rather than just two slots that could be linked. Better than none, I guess!

OK, if you want complete flexibilty then here is what I do. You can test all this out for free by downloading the following apps demos: Bidule, CHainer and Battery 2.
What I do is open Live, load Bidule VST and open up Battery 2 within Bidule. I have it set up so that Battery has 12 cells visible with each cell set to a Midi note on my controller. There are 12 cells so it covers an octave. Within Battery, each cell is set up to its own folder so I can scan through all the samples within that specific folder whether the sequence is playing or not. This allows me to have one cell for Kicks, one for snares, one for open hats, one for clsd hts etc.
Now, in bidule, you can see the multiple outputs (12) from battery. I have each output connected to a CHainer VST FX host and then to a mixer channel (I go mono). This allows me to experiment with VST fx for each drum channel (cell) quickly and easily instead of dragging, connecting and yadda blah blah. It is all done almost instantly.
Lastly, i repeat the following setup 12 times (12 instances of Battery with 12 cells/outputs with each cell connected to a chainer) and save this as a Bidule layout so i never have to make the settings again.
Now i have my whole Midi controller set up as a big ass drum machine with all octaves covered. Samples can be interchanged easily within BAttery by 1) scanning through the samples within the folder set to that cell and/or 2) drag and drop between cells. ANy cell can be set to a voice group for choking etc.

EEkevin wrote:I like the simplicity of Impulse, especially since people on the forum have figured out how to use multiple instances of it (and thus more sample slots).

Can anyone provide a link to this post? I've tried searching, no luck..

I was in the exact same boat you are...needing multi-layer velocity hits for realistic accoustic drums. Check out the demos of NI's battery 2 and Linplug's RMIV. I tried both out and liked the ease of use I got with RMIV and the lower price tag. I'm now creating VERY realistic drum tracks, and since I'm a drummer, my ear is especially tuned to how drums sound.

Thanks for the thoughts on RMIV, I'll spend some time with the demo. I think the multiple-velocity thing will keep impulse from being my main drum sampler. The Linplug site has some good info, and it looks like a sampler that focuses on both acoustic and synthetic sounds. I'd love a sampler where I didn't have to then go buy a quality sound bank for it.

EEkevin,
If you are interested in subtleties like high bitrate drum samples and velocity layering, is Live the tool you want to do this in?

How about Kontakt/Battery?

Also, check out jamstix which is a fantastic new VST approach to real acoustic drumming, both as a drum machine with a very high quality acoustic kit included, and also with intelligent algorithms to generate drum accompaniment against a bass line, melody or midi. Give the demo and hour and see what you think.

It seems that you are striving for a sophisticated approach to recording programmed drums.
You may be better off looking at Cubase SX also. Live has some midi timing issues relating to VST.

anonymouse wrote:EEkevin,
If you are interested in subtleties like high bitrate drum samples and velocity layering, is Live the tool you want to do this in?

well, the reason I posted was to figure out if things like bitrate or velocity are "subtleties" or necessitites when it comes to acoustic drums. And, there seems to be some disagreement about it! I am really just trying to get a grasp of things before I get some songs "finished" and have to go back and fix the drums.

Live is absolutely the tool I want to use! But, I am not opposed to rewiring if need be (though I would have to learn more about that).

I am fairly aware of the programs available (I have been playing with the RMIV demo for a few days whenever I found a spare minute), but what is really helpful is other live users telling me what works for them.

As usual, the forum has offered up some great responses. Any other thoughts?

Another option for you would be to use Reason 3. You can use their Redrum to establish patterns or you can load a whole kit (the whole set) with multiple microphones into NN-XT within Reason. You have to get the Refill DrumKits (which costs $100--well worth it--and 24 bit)
Doing drums off a keyboard is difficult, though. Anybody recommend a good drum MIDI. Anybody try M-Audio's Finger Trigger?