Ableton Forum

Well folks, it looks like the time is almost here. Despite my grips with Ableton's neglect for some DAW fundamentals I've stuck with it because it truly has been the best, most inspiring DAW to work with.

However, with BitWig that's about to change. Not only did the former Ableton employees take inspiration from Ableton Live, they've left Ableton in the dust in some very crucial areas which are OBJECTIVELY better than what Live has to offer.

1. Multiple audio events per clip / Layered Editing

As all of you know, the Ableton arrange window is not sample accurate. That means editing waveforms requires either an external editor or going into the "detail" view to do the exact same thing you would do in arrange. This is called redundancy. Having to go to 2 places to do one thing is inefficient and thoughtless. There is no intention there and shows how much Ableton neglect audio editing. Gerhard Behles always speaks about simplicity, this workflow however is the exact opposite of simple.

For people who record live music, drums for example this is a nightmare. Say you have to line up some drums, you'll have to cut the waveform in arrange, find the transient in detail view, go back to arrange and do that over and over and over. Neglect.

Bitwig solves that problem in two ways.

The first is multiple audio events per clip. This allows you to edit in the detailed view. Revolutionary? Not at all, it's a logical, obvious feature that feels like it always been there. That's good programming. So now when I want to edit a clip I go to detail view and do all my work in ONE place.

The second is layered editing which extends beyond just audio but also incorporate midi. Less places to go, more information together. That's called simplifying while adding at the same time.

These are just a few of the ways in which BitWig is OBJECTIVELY better than Live. I put that in all caps because that's not an opinion. Ableton doesn't have solutions for those problems. I've had no reason to leave Ableton before, there simply was no competition but BitWig is what Live 9 should have been, and it's that on it's very first release!

Now mind you, it's the little things that counts and BitWig will have it's on dumb neglects but I've stayed in Ableton while overlooking it's weaknesses because it has been overall the best but it looks like it's about to meet it's maker. Will Ableton be the Blackberry and BitWig the iPhone? In my opinion, Ableton has been lazy or not focusing on the basics anymore. That's what happens when you have your own lane but as Music Radar put it, they're no longer in a class by themselves -

"What's really intriguing is that it's the first DAW to really bring the fight to Ableton Live's territory, in exactly the same way as the Cubases, Logics and Sonars of the world have been battling it out for aeons."

It may be too early to tell but right now BitWig is doing everything Ableton does and much better. It some ways it makes Ableton look old. How many of you will be part of the great migration?

hec wrote:right now BitWig is doing everything Ableton does and much better.

No other DAW has something like M4L, which IMO is the most revolutionary thing they've done since the session view.

Bitwig claim that Studio will have a modular environment, but not on version 1.

So no, not everything.

P.S. Retorts like "I don't use M4L!" are invalid.

stringtapper wrote:

hec wrote:right now BitWig is doing everything Ableton does and much better.

No other DAW has something like M4L, which IMO is the most revolutionary thing they've done since the session view.

Bitwig claim that Studio will have a modular environment, but not on version 1.

So no, not everything.

P.S. Retorts like "I don't use M4L!" are invalid.

No retort, that's a valid point. Still slaying Ableton in the other fronts.

Hec are you part of the Bitwig beta team?
If you aren't then saying it's objectively better is hyperbole, it would be theoretically better.

I'm looking forward to testing out the demo for sure, but I'm not about to come to any conclusions until I actually use the software for a while and see. Honestly I doubt I will switch, the only thing tempting me is at this point is that Ableton have so many company mouths to feed with Suite that it's $299 for me to upgrade, and $399 to buy Bitwig outright.

Mostly when recording live drums like you mentioned, I don't micro edit the timing so it sounds like a drum machine. When I do deal with phase issues and the like I use Digital Performer. I don't think moving to another DAW that uses sub windows for micro editing is an ideal solution, it's IMO always been a bad idea to force your MIDI and audio editing into a sub window. Just like Ableton Live I see Bitwig more like a cool MPC or old sampler, dealing with things like phase issues, or recording hardware synths? Bitwig has also decided that SysEx isn't that important to them, so no SysEx.
I'm excited to see if Bitwig doesn't just gel for me and I immediately love it, but considering the already mentioned lack of ReWire, lack of System Exclusive MID data, plus for me the jump to VSTs on Mac when Audio Units have been super stable for years now? Well it's not like I'm thinking Bitwig are game changers, more like a sideways step than forward.
A great and stable demo might change that, who knows?

I love how people are literally throwing their money at a product they've not even used yet!

hec wrote:No retort, that's a valid point. Still slaying Ableton in the other fronts.

"Slaying" is a bit overstated. You've just cited a couple of features where Bitwig appears to have made advances over Live. Sounds great. Is Live going to be "slayed" by these couple features? Doubtful.

Just because Bitwig is "objectively better" in some areas doesn't mean that all Live users care. Over 50% of what people are crowing about in Bitwig are features I don't care about at all.

Yes, it will be interesting to see what happens in September but I have no reason to spend $400 to fix problems I don't have.

I'll try the demo

These posts are so strange to me, is the OP trying to rationalize his/her move to Bitwig or call attention to missing features in Live? It seems to me the former where the OP is hoping that enough people are going to move to Bitwig to justify his/her own move. I can understand this as the whole thought of switch to a completely new product is anxiety provoking. However, how would anyone know what the are going to do without even trying the demo?

I would have tried out Bitwig if I didn't already invest time and money in Suite and Push. I don't know anything about Bitwig Suite, except that it's made by ex-Ableton employees(?), it looks prettier, and some have mentioned features I just don't care about at this point in time.
After I bought Push (ok, Zebra and Satin too), I decided "right, this is it, no more software and gear, time to get down to it and practice and produce music with what I have".

The only thing I need improving is my music making abilities, which is DAW-independent.

hec wrote:right now BitWig is doing everything Ableton does and much better.

hec wrote:No retort, that's a valid point. Still slaying Ableton in the other fronts.

Bitwig beta tester here. Let's begin with this one: Bitwig Studio b11.3 (latest beta and feature freeze) does not have a tap tempo button. I don't have the time to enumerate all the things that Live does amazingly well and Bitwig 1.0 will not provide for me as a working musician.

Evidently, your first world dilettante money will provide a steady source of income for Bitwig. Probably for version 3 they will finish implementing their stack and present some innovation. I will be investing my time and money on books.

Two cents.

I did something similar where I sold off all my third party stuff. I know just use native devices and build M4L devices if I need something specific. This was a test for me to see if I really did need all that other stuff and I realize I don't. Nothing against Bitwig, but for me it would involve learning a whole new set of devices and abandoning all the time I have spent learning Max.

This whole "lets all say we are going to buy Bitwig Studio and show Ableton how mad we are at them" schtick is getting really tired.

I just think of it is a big new plugin. I'm looking forward to it.

I have everything I need to create music. more than what i need. New things just get me inspired.

I'd love to know how many professional musicians are desperate for Bitwig because the "flawed or missing" features in Live are holding them back..... not many I bet. Too busy making music!