Ableton Forum

Go to Post 7 for a corrected post. (I'm pretty sure one needs a Push for this to work).

For a discussion of theory, see viewtopic.php?f=55&t=202364&p=1590660#p1590660

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I have PXT-Live Plus, but I think it would require several operations to do it - (Switching back and forth between note and session mode, which would add more latency; using a Launchpad allows me to stay in note mode on the push and use session mode on the Launchpad.

But it is true that I might be able to assign unused buttons on Push to trigger the changes in User Mode, so thanks for the suggestion.

I couldn't see where Live Plus would actually change the scales for the secondary dominants. I was lucky that the "MINOR GYPSY" scale (E Phrygian mode with a #3 (G#) was available, but I don't see any way of creating a C7 chord for the progression C7->F in the "MINOR GYPSY" E Phrygian context ("SCALE ROOT" is E. (This is a limitation in Ableton because the voicing of the chords is not independent of the scale chosen... the ability to do this is why the black keys on a conventional keyboard (or the fretboard on a guitar) allows this freedom. One can choose chromatic, but then one looses the convenience of the compact chord voicing and scale range of the 8x8 matrix....

One way would be to be able to create your own scales, but these are hard-wired in the {PUSH Python code (constants.Pyc). (I've looked in to programming Python, but decided that I don't want to change Ableton's factory codes - still, it would be nice if Ableton would provide a path for this through PXT-Live. I downloaded Python and a couple of the free IDE's, but it really seems like more trouble than it's worth.

I might be able to use a Scale MIDI Effect in some way to define the scales (turning them off and on via ClyphX or PXT, but that would be REALLY a PITA,

In short, above the two scales available to me (which at LEAST gives me to use the major E chord in the context of E Phrygian, the other alternatives get way too complicated. For Flamenco, I would ALWAYS use an E Major Chord, but also use the C and G chords, and this requires independence of the chords from the scales (i.e., use of accidentals).

We REALLY need a chord rack to play accompaniment chords in note mode on Push....
(Like I said, I can put a power chord def. which sort of works (it "fills out" the melody, but is a note effect), but removes a lot of subtlety. One can switch the chord effect rack off instantaneously depending on whether one wanted to perform chord progressions or melodic lines....

And certainly for jazz, one needs dominant 7ths in both major and minor, as well as maj7th and min7th chords (the latter are defined by the diatonic scales defined from the root.)

I'll quit now, while I'm behind.....

TomViolenz wrote:Clever approach! Two things. 1.If you have PXT Live you can also program your clyphx actions to be controlled via Push in PXTs accessory modus. Might be usefull to you?!
2. Have you looked into PXT Live Plus, It does a whole lot with scales and such I think. Maybe it already has a solution to your problem. There are 6 videos about it on nativeKontrolls youtube channel.

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TomViolenz wrote:I was under the impression that you could define your own scales in PXT Live Plus, by assigning the notes to the pad matrix yourself. Maybe I misunderstood something.

You may be right; and one could dedicate a clip to changing between note and Session modes. But chord changes should happen instantaneously - it is worth looking into (for somebody else, maybe --- I'm still trying to get used to switching back and forth depending on harmonic context for the above scales...

(Update: Just checked the documentation for PXT-Live, and it looks like you only get one matrix to play with. Still, I suppose one could set up clusters of notes.... not sure how that would work, though, and especially if it would be worth the effort. The BEST way (IMO) would be a chord rack, with the ability to switch it off and on... Chord mode might work, but it seems awkward to me - but I haven't tried it, and I could well be very wrong - Stray does excellent work)

But at least now I can get a Flamenco bass line in "InKey(s)" mode....

I think one approach would be to play an initial backing track using the simplified scales, and then add "color" accidentals (e.g. passing notes, secondary accidentals) on a second pass. I'm beginning to realize why I picked guitar as my primary instrument - it is so EASY to do this on the guitar, even if you only get one basic sound - the musical freedom is enormous and the scale "reach" much greater than a conventional keyboard.

I have a You-Rock guitar I haven't opened yet, and have been looking at some of the other nylon string midi alternatives (Godin, etc...) Most of the MIDI guitar programs don't separate the right hand from the left hand for strumming, though, although I've been trying to talk them into it....)

At this stage of the development, everything seems like a moving (and expensive) target....

I should add that one doesn't need a Launchpad to do this, of course. One could also assign computer keys to trigger the scale/chord changes.....

Update: For those interested, I also posted this in the General Forum:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=202259

I cover the basic theory for this approach in the download section on my website

Also, for a discussion of how this is used in practice, see viewtopic.php?f=55&t=202364&p=1590660#p1590660

(Update (Error correction): MIXOLYDIAN was changed to LYDIAN for the Sub-Dominant in the Major key.

I set three tracks Titled "Phrygian","Harmonic Minor", and "Major", which have no inputs or outputs, but control Push configuration clips on each Tracks, using Clyphx.

The "Phrygian" track switches between E Phrygian Mode(s) and the relative Minors and substitutes.
I usually play guitar with the capo on the 4th fret, so change scale root to C# or G# for A Phrygian ("por Abajo") and E Phrygian ("por Arriba"), respectively.

(Diatonic IV -> I -> V7 -> I for Major, Minor)
The "Harmonic Minor" track voices chords for the related Minor Scale, including Secondary Dominants
The "Major" track voices chords for the related Major Scale, including secondary dominants

(You will probably want to change the track configurations for your own needs)
=================================================

Track "Phrygian"


(Flamenco Group - Yellow *Phrygian)

[Min Gypsy] PUSH SCL TYPE MINOR GYPSY;"Harmonic Minor"/STOP;"Major"/STOP;PUSH MSG Min Gypsy All chords except I,V;
[Phrygian] PUSH SCL TYPE PHRYGIAN;"Harmonic Minor"/STOP;"Major"/STOP;PUSH MSG Phrygian All Chords except III;
[Bhairav (IV7)] PUSH SCL TYPE BHAIRAV;"Harmonic Minor"/STOP;"Major"/STOP;PUSH MSG IV7 Bhairav ;

(Related Minors - Light Blue)

[Am-] PUSH SCL TYPE MINOR; ;"Phrygian"/STOP;"Major"/STOP;PUSH MSG Am Natural (Tonic); (Natural Minor)
[Am+] PUSH SCL TYPE MELODIC MINOR;"Phrygian"/STOP;"Major"/STOP; Am Melodic (Tonic); (Melodic Minor)

(To change key - Green)

[Key A] PUSH SCL ROOT C#;;PUSH MSG A* Phrygian)
[Key E] PUSH SCL ROOT G#;PUSH MSG E* Phrygian;


====================================================

Track "Harmonic Minor"

(Related Harmonic Minor - Light Green)

[Dm->Am] PUSH SCL TYPE DORIAN;PUSH SCL ROOT D;"Phrygian"/STOP;"Major"/STOP;PUSH MSG Dm (Sub Dominant); (Sub-Dominant Dm)
[Am ] PUSH SCL TYPE HARMONIC MINOR; PUSH SCL ROOT A;"Phrygian"/STOP;"Major"/STOP;PUSH MSG Am (Tonic); (Tonic Am)
[E7->Am] PUSH SCL TYPE MINOR GYPSY;PUSH SCL ROOT E;"Phrygian"/STOP;"Major"/STOP;PUSH MSG E7 (Dominant); (Dominant E)

[A7->Dm] PUSH SCL TYPE MAJOR;PUSH SCL ROOT A;"Phrygian"/STOP;"Major"/STOP;PUSH MSG A7 -> Dm; (Secondary Dominant)

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Track "Major"

(Related Major)

[F ->C] PUSH SCL TYPE LYDIAN;PUSH SCL ROOT F;"Phrygian"/STOP;"Harmonic Minor"/STOP;PUSH MSG F (Sub Dominant); (Sub-Dominant - F)
[C ] PUSH SCL TYPE MAJOR;PUSH SCL ROOT C;"Phrygian"/STOP;"Harmonic Minor"/STOP;PUSH MSG C (Tonic); (Tonic - C)
[G7->C] PUSH SCL TYPE MINOR GYPSY;PUSH SCL ROOT G;"Phrygian"/STOP;"Harmonic Minor"/STOP;PUSH MSG G7->C (Dominant); (Dominant G7)

[C7->F] PUSH SCL TYPE MINOR GYPSY;PUSH SCL ROOT C;"A Phrygian/STOP;"Harmonic Minor"/STOP; PUSH MSG C7->F;
[D7->G] PUSH SCL TYPE MINOR GYPSY;PUSH SCL ROOT D;"A Phrygian/STOP;"Harmonic Minor"/STOP; PUSH MSG D7->G; (Secondary Dominant)

(Related Minors - Light Blue)

[Am-] PUSH SCL TYPE MINOR; PUSH SCL ROOT A;"Phrygian"/STOP;"Major"/STOP;PUSH MSG Am Natural (Tonic); (Natural Minor)
[Am+] PUSH SCL TYPE MELODIC MINOR; PUSH SCL ROOT A;"Phrygian"/STOP;"Major"/STOP; Am Melodic (Tonic); (Melodic Minor)


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Here's are the clip names for all the scales:

Track "All Scales"

[Minor Gypsy] PUSH SCL TYPE MINOR GYPSY;PUSH MSG Phrygian/Minor Dominant 7th);
[Phrygian ] PUSH SCL TYPE PHRYGIAN;PUSH MSG Phrygian;
[Major ] PUSH SCL TYPE MAJOR;PUSH MSG Major;
[Minor ] PUSH SCL TYPE MINOR;PUSH MSG Natural Minor;
[Dorian ] PUSH SCL TYPE DORIAN;PUSH MSG Dorian;
[Mixolydian ] PUSH SCL TYPE MIXOLYDIAN;PUSH MSG Mixolydian;
[Lydian ] PUSH SCL TYPE LYDIAN;PUSH MSG Lydian;
[Locrian ] PUSH SCL TYPE LOCRIAN;PUSH MSG Locrian;
[Diminished ] PUSH SCL TYPE DIMINISHED;PUSH MSG Diminished;
[Whole-half ] PUSH SCL TYPE WHOLE-HALF;PUSH MSG Whole-half;
[Whole Tone ] PUSH SCL TYPE WHOLE TONE;PUSH MSG Whole Tone;
[Minor Blues] PUSH SCL TYPE MINOR BLUES;PUSH MSG Minor Blues;
[Minor Pent ] PUSH SCL TYPE MINOR PENTATONIC;PUSH MSG Minor Pentatonic;
[Major Pent ] PUSH SCL TYPE MAJOR PENTATONIC;PUSH MSG Major Pentatonic;
[Minor Harm ] PUSH SCL TYPE HARMONIC MINOR;PUSH MSG Harmonic Minor;
[Minor Mel ] PUSH SCL TYPE MELODIC MINOR;PUSH MSG Melodic Minor;
[Locrian Sup] PUSH SCL TYPE SUPER LOCRIAN;PUSH MSG Super Locrian;
[Bhairav ] PUSH SCL TYPE BHAIRAV;PUSH MSG Bhairev;
[Minor Hngrn] PUSH SCL TYPE HUNGARIAN MINOR;PUSH MSG Hungarian Minor;
[Hirojoshi ] PUSH SCL TYPE HIROJOSHI;PUSH MSG Hirojoshi;
[In-Sen ] PUSH SCL TYPE IN-SEN;PUSH MSG In-Sen;
[Iwato ] PUSH SCL TYPE IWATO;PUSH MSG Iwato;
[Kumoi ] PUSH SCL TYPE KUMOI;PUSH MSG Kumoi;
[Pelog ] PUSH SCL TYPE PELOG;PUSH MSG Pelog;
[Spanish ] PUSH SCL TYPE SPANISH;PUSH MSG Spanish;