Ableton Forum

Hello
Lately i've found something very strange.
1. I'll write a song in D minor. I use Live's Scale midi effect to ensure the only notes I play are in the D minor scale. I'm not using external synths (mostly FM synths) via midi. I write my song everything sounds ok and sounds in tune (but I know I don't have amazing ears). Then I test analyse the song in Mixed in Key and it comes up as G minor. how is this possible?

2. Another example would be I write a synth line in D minor (using Scale midi effect) routed to my various external synths. Then sometime when I consolidate the synth line and drag to mixed in key it will say it's in a different key. (I've made sure the synths are in tune so I know it's not that)

Is it because if say I only used 4 notes in 1 scale those same 4 notes could be shared in another scale and Mixed in Key can't determine between them?

Point 1 is the most bothering because If i write a song in one scale and tune my drums to that scale and it's being analysed as a other scale i'm worried things wont be in tune?

I look forward to your help.

LDead wrote:
Is it because if say I only used 4 notes in 1 scale those same 4 notes could be shared in another scale and Mixed in Key can't determine between them?

Likely. You certainly must also consider the circle if fifths, that the Mixed in Key system happens to be based on too.

D Minor notes are: D, E, F, G, A, A# and C
G Minor notes are: G, A, A#, C, D, D# and F

See a pattern? Only D# in the G-minor scale isn't also in D-minor and the E of the D-minor scale isn't in D-minor . In the circle if fifths system that MIK uses Gm and Dm are next to each other, meaning these can mixed. Going right on this circle you go a new scale of the same type — major or minor — which base note is the fifth note of the scale you're currently on.

G minor has b flat and e flat while d minor has only b flat. So the two key scales share 7 of the same notes with the only difference being e flat/natural. (assuming you're not using the harmonic minor scale, etc.) So, if there aren't a lot of e notes in your music, odds are a key detection software could get confused.

I'm also assuming you're starting with the root chord (D minor) as that's oftentimes a telltale sign of which key you're in since multiple musical keys have the same key signatures. If not, that could be another reason for the confusion on Mixed In Key's part.

Finally, there isn't any musical key prediction software out there that is perfect. DJ Tech Tools ran a comparison of the major tools and I think Mixed In Key was one of the top ones. I also believe the top one was only like 80% correct for songs with the actual musical key known. So reliance on this software is helpful, but don't always trust it 100%. You probably drastically underestimate how good your ears are, so trust them.

[quote=You probably drastically underestimate how good your ears are, so trust them.[/quote]

Thanks so much for the fast reply's this make me feel a lot better. I really appreciate both of your help.

ImNotDedYet wrote: I also believe the top one was only like 80% correct for songs with the actual musical key known.

It can also be questioned what "the actual musical key known" means in practice. When making electronic music, you may play the A-minor scale on the keyboard, but the sound patch may have overtones or pitch drifting qualities that also places the song partly in another scale for brief periods, which may throw off the key analysis process .

ImNotDedYet wrote:G minor has b flat and e flat while d minor has only b flat.

For practical purposes B flat here is the same as A sharp (A#) and e flat is the same as D sharp (D#)? I know there is some rule for what to use in what context, but I opted for sharps years back when I was key analyzing relevant parts of my song collection. It seems Push uses flats as default.

Stromkraft wrote:

ImNotDedYet wrote:G minor has b flat and e flat while d minor has only b flat.

For practical purposes B flat here is the same as A sharp (A#) and e flat is the same as D sharp (D#)? I know there is some rule for what to use in what context, but I opted for sharps years back when I was key analyzing relevant parts of my song collection. It seems Push uses flats as default.

Heh. "Some rule". Wars have been started on this forum over less I barely know any theory, but I think the rule may be the ... uhm ... cycle of fifths! Because you sharpen clockwise, the 7th note of the new key. counterclockwise from C maj the first one in the cycle is G with one sharpened note being the last one in the scale like - g,a,b,c,d,e,f#
So while B major has an A sharp in it (among others), F major has a B flat. It's the same physical frequency but it means different things in context of a key. Among its friends its considered in relation.

I say all this, but in reality I have to make "durr durr" noises whenever sit and think about what key I'm in and where I can go from there. Like a baffled child trying to remember instructions from a parent.

Angstrom wrote: Heh. "Some rule". Wars have been started on this forum over less I barely know any theory, but I think the rule may be the ... uhm ... cycle of fifths! Because you sharpen clockwise, the 7th note of the new key. counterclockwise from C maj the first one in the cycle is G with one sharpened note being the last one in the scale like - g,a,b,c,d,e,f#
So while B major has an A sharp in it (among others), F major has a B flat. It's the same physical frequency but it means different things in context of a key.

Yes, that sounds reasonable as well useful to me.
I do think that in at least some historic musical context, medieval schools, some classical periods or whatever, there are temperances where the flats and the sharps are not identical in frequency. I've always found that interesting but nevertheless haven't found the time to study this further.

A practical reason for not having 'A' and 'A#' in the same scale is that in conventional music notation both notes would have to be written on the same line/space and you would have to insert a sharp or natural sign to show which one you mean. by calling it Bb it gets it's own line on the stave.

Stromkraft wrote:

Angstrom wrote: Heh. "Some rule". Wars have been started on this forum over less I barely know any theory, but I think the rule may be the ... uhm ... cycle of fifths! Because you sharpen clockwise, the 7th note of the new key. counterclockwise from C maj the first one in the cycle is G with one sharpened note being the last one in the scale like - g,a,b,c,d,e,f#
So while B major has an A sharp in it (among others), F major has a B flat. It's the same physical frequency but it means different things in context of a key.

Yes, that sounds reasonable as well useful to me.
I do think that in at least some historic music, medieval, classical or whatever, there are temperances where the flats and the sharps are not identical in frequency. I've always found that interesting but nevertheless haven't found the time to study this further.

And that discrepancy, the difference in frequency between two enharmonic pitches, is the entire reason equal temperament was developed. Otherwise you'd have keyboards with both F# and Gb keys (and some did exist before 12-tet [twelve-tone equal temperament] went mainstream) on them. In Pythagorean tuning the discrepancy is called the Pythagorean Comma.

And yes there is a difference between Bb and A#, even in 12-tet. Angstrom pretty much explained it. To give an example where it would actually matter take the key of D minor (saddest of all keys) where Bb is diatonic (native to the key signature) and functions normally as the root of the VI chord (Bb-D-F), the 3rd of the iv chord (G-Bb-D), or the 5th of the iiº chord (E-G-Bb) but could also function as the 7th of the VII chord (C-E-G-Bb) that can act as a secondary dominant to the III chord (F-A-C), with the Bb resolving down to A, the third of the III chord.

But an A# in this key would be chromatic (not native to the key signature) and would most likely function as either the 3rd of the secondary dominant V/#vi (F#-A#-C# resolving to B-D-F#), which is an example of a secondary dominant of a chromatic mediant, a form of modal mixture or chordal borrowing, in this case the diatonic vi chord (B-D-F#) of D major being borrowed and used in the key of D minor. In this case the A# would resolve up to B.

That might seem very esoteric but a very real world application of it would be if you wanted to modulate from the key of D minor to the key of B minor (or even B major). Bb is diatonic to D minor but the A# would be necessary to function as the leading tone to B minor, since the V chord (dominant) of B minor is spelled F#-A#-C#.

Yes completely unnecessary information if you're not writing music out for others to play from, or if you're writing music that never uses more than three chords and certainly never modulates, or if you're not a keyboardist in a church.

As you were.

B flat/A sharp - it's the same note, so it's not a big deal...until you get into sheet music, either writing it or reading it. If I looked at a piece of sheet music with only an A sharp, my immediate thought would be WTF key is this? It also makes a difference in sheet music notation because now you'd have to notate to play the natural of the A note when you want the actual A and the non-naturaled note when you want to play the A sharp/B flat. And there would never be any B notes in your notation.

So, you can call it whatever you want for your own musical purposes, but when it comes to notation, it's best to realize it should be a B flat rather than an A sharp.

crumhorn wrote:A practical reason for not having 'A' and 'A#' in the same scale is that in conventional music notation both notes would have to be written on the same line/space and you would have to insert a sharp or natural sign to show which one you mean. by calling it Bb it gets it's own line on the stave.

That too. Good point.

Although when you get into more exotic scales (e.g. octatonic) it becomes unavoidable unless you start resorting to double accidentals.

ImNotDedYet wrote:B flat/A sharp - it's the same note, so it's not a big deal...until you get into sheet music, either writing it or reading it. If I looked at a piece of sheet music with only an A sharp, my immediate thought would be WTF key is this?

Are you talking about an A# in the key signature? Yeah, that doesn't happen.

If you're talking about an A# appearing in the actual music then it could be any number of keys (really any of them depending on what's going on in the music).

ImNotDedYet wrote:So, you can call it whatever you want for your own musical purposes, but when it comes to notation, it's best to realize it should be a B flat rather than an A sharp.

Well that's not true. If I'm in the key of F# major I'm not going to spell the I (tonic) chord F#-Bb-C#.

Thanks for the detailed responses everyone this has really helped!

stringtapper wrote:

ImNotDedYet wrote:B flat/A sharp - it's the same note, so it's not a big deal...until you get into sheet music, either writing it or reading it. If I looked at a piece of sheet music with only an A sharp, my immediate thought would be WTF key is this?

Are you talking about an A# in the key signature? Yeah, that doesn't happen.

If you're talking about an A# appearing in the actual music then it could be any number of keys (really any of them depending on what's going on in the music).

ImNotDedYet wrote:So, you can call it whatever you want for your own musical purposes, but when it comes to notation, it's best to realize it should be a B flat rather than an A sharp.

Well that's not true. If I'm in the key of F# major I'm not going to spell the I (tonic) chord F#-Bb-C#.

Yes, in the first instance I was referring to the key signature.

In the second quote, I was speaking only in reference to this example. Obviously in the key of F# Major, you would want to refer to sharps as opposed to flats.