Ableton Forum

im not asking a basic question here, please don't tell me to "put on the metronome" or to quantize.. duh thats pretty obvious

im talking about complex melodies on piano, i play in most of my tracks, a classical/jazzy type feel, usually with very complex melodies and rhythm.

basically when i want to incorporate piano into my tracks how i've been doing this is just free playing away from the tracks BPM, then just bring in my synths or whatever and it has a really nice feel to it "sometimes the piano is a intro to my intro" "or an outro or a break"

i really get more complex during an outro or intro when theres not that much going on and then tone down the complexity when im bringing other stuff back

but basically the question is, lets say i wanted todo a track more focused on piano and vocals, do u have any "tips or logic or theory" on how to get those types of tracks more on-time

when i do find a "good bpm" or really try and stay in time with a selected BPM something just seems to be "off"?

don't know if my question is clear or not, i barely know how to really phrase this, its really bugging me.

maybe a real classical pianist or someone to that nature might be able to answer/understand my question better.

CoreyJayzMusic wrote:im not asking a basic question here, please don't tell me to "put on the metronome" or to quantize.. duh thats pretty obvious

im talking about complex melodies on piano, i play in most of my tracks, a classical/jazzy type feel, usually with very complex melodies and rhythm.

basically when i want to incorporate piano into my tracks how i've been doing this is just free playing away from the tracks BPM, then just bring in my synths or whatever and it has a really nice feel to it "sometimes the piano is a intro to my intro" "or an outro or a break"

i really get more complex during an outro or intro when theres not that much going on and then tone down the complexity when im bringing other stuff back

but basically the question is, lets say i wanted todo a track more focused on piano and vocals, do u have any "tips or logic or theory" on how to get those types of tracks more on-time

when i do find a "good bpm" or really try and stay in time with a selected BPM something just seems to be "off"?

don't know if my question is clear or not, i barely know how to really phrase this, its really bugging me.

maybe a real classical pianist or someone to that nature might be able to answer/understand my question better.

The question isn't entirely clear, no.

Are you saying that if you play to other parts that you've already sequenced (e.g. drums, bass) that you can stay in time but if you just play the keyboard part by itself you can't?

Sequencers have a tendency to box us into playing in ways that aren't all that natural. A piece that's just solo voice with piano accompaniment is especially the kind of texture that asks to breathe rhythmically. Playing with the push and pull of rubato isn't very compatible with a sequencing grid.

You could conceivably do all kinds of automation to get tempo changes that align with your keyboard part, but that sounds like madness. I would try getting the tempo in your head as a guideline but just record without reference to the grid, so no metronome.

Again, it's not entirely clear what you're asking.

You have two options.

1. Use a fucking metronome. If your arrangement is supposed to be at a fixed BPM, great. Plenty of musicians can play with a metronome and nothing sounds "off". If your arrangement is supposed to change tempo, write in a click track with those tempo changes automated in, so that you slow down when you need to and speed up when you need to. A symphonic orchestra doesn't "free-play"... they follow the conductor.

2. Don't use a metronome. All your shit will be unpredictable, nothing will snap to the grid, penciling in backup instruments will be a pain, and trying to match up the vocals with your erratic piano playing will be annoying as hell.


Also let's hear some of this "very complex" music you're supposedly writing.

Also, it is possible in the midi editor to stretch out selected sections of notes. You may be able to use that to sort of nudge and compensate.

If you go all freestyle, nothing can predict you. If you can't even comprehend your own timing, you may need to do some soul searching so you're able to work with other stuff.


If you don't want to use a metronome, other options are to play over loops.

You can record your piano as an audio clip instead of midi

Maybe experiment with Looper.

Really, I do commend you for letting it all flow and trying to collage pieces together. Just be aware that it is probably way harder to deal with than you realize

infernal.machine wrote:A symphonic orchestra doesn't "free-play"... they follow the conductor.

Well, as anyone else who has played in an orchestra (or any other kind of ensemble with a conductor) can attest to, that's not always case!

Also, your advice about writing in tempo changes would be maddening in the context of playing something like a solo piano chamber work where there's lots of rubato and the tempo needs to fluctuate naturally and at the will of the performer (a lot of Chopin comes to mind).

yur2die4 wrote:Really, I do commend you for letting it all flow and trying to collage pieces together. Just be aware that it is probably way harder to deal with than you realize

Wouldn't necessarily be hard… if one were to play all of the other parts over the keyboard part and just treat it like old school tape recording (in which case I would agree that recording to audio might be easier).

yur2die4 wrote:Also, it is possible in the midi editor to stretch out selected sections of notes. You may be able to use that to sort of nudge and compensate.

If you go all freestyle, nothing can predict you. If you can't even comprehend your own timing, you may need to do some soul searching so you're able to work with other stuff.


If you don't want to use a metronome, other options are to play over loops.

You can record your piano as an audio clip instead of midi

Maybe experiment with Looper.

Really, I do commend you for letting it all flow and trying to collage pieces together. Just be aware that it is probably way harder to deal with than you realize

first of all i'd like to thank you guys for the quick feedback i really do appreciate it..

it was actually a quick fix kind've stupid on my part... basically i assigned the tap tempo to a key and tapped it while i was playing it helped tremendously.

i still like my free flowing approach though, one thing that i'd really like to talk more about is tempo changes without it sounding too crazy.

any advice on that?

Couldn't you also seperate the parts in time?!

Intro-Intro: free playing piano
Intro: Synth part in steady time

On the boarder between Intro-Intro and Intro you play over the incoming synth part which is in straight time and adjust your piano playing more and more to that.

Once that transition is over you keep straight time until you want to break free again. Then you do the same in reverse.

Just an idea. That's at least what I would do, if I could actually play the piano

TomViolenz wrote:Couldn't you also seperate the parts in time?!

Intro-Intro: free playing piano
Intro: Synth part in steady time

On the boarder between Intro-Intro and Intro you play over the incoming synth part which is in straight time and adjust your piano playing more and more to that.

Once that transition is over you keep straight time until you want to break free again. Then you do the same in reverse.

Just an idea. That's at least what I would do, if I could actually play the piano

thats exactly what i do!

Ah, cool. But I guess then I don't really understand where the problem lies

CoreyJayzMusic wrote:

yur2die4 wrote:Also, it is possible in the midi editor to stretch out selected sections of notes. You may be able to use that to sort of nudge and compensate.

If you go all freestyle, nothing can predict you. If you can't even comprehend your own timing, you may need to do some soul searching so you're able to work with other stuff.


If you don't want to use a metronome, other options are to play over loops.

You can record your piano as an audio clip instead of midi

Maybe experiment with Looper.

Really, I do commend you for letting it all flow and trying to collage pieces together. Just be aware that it is probably way harder to deal with than you realize

no my problem was the opposite, my timing was on point to the "feel" of my track but once i tried sequencing with other parts it would go off time, but i think i have that fixed now...

TomViolenz wrote:
Ah, cool. But I guess then I don't really understand where the problem lies

i think i fixed it with the tap tempo, what i was doing before was this.

free playing then like you said, then changing up the feel to match everything else coming in, but i really wasn't able to loop any piano parts, basically if i wanted a 32 bar section of piano i'd have to play it through myself because i couldn't get the tempo right. and what i mean by tempo is, my brains bpm was just off with ableton, for example if i played it in it sounded right, but if i tried looping it, it would be off time, i know it sounds weird.

simple fix tap tempo.

im gonna try and finish this track if i do ill let u guys know how it comes out!

CoreyJayzMusic wrote: basically the question is, lets say i wanted todo a track more focused on piano and vocals, do u have any "tips or logic or theory" on how to get those types of tracks more on-time

when i do find a "good bpm" or really try and stay in time with a selected BPM something just seems to be "off"?

OK, missed the later responses while writing so this may be totally off track:

To me it sounds like you do have a potentially correct instrument part that you envision having a natural flow with tempo changes. If this is correct your focus should be on getting this part down and using this as a tempo master track in Arrangement.

Then all other instruments would follow the tempo changes, even if they are heavily quantized as the tempo master track is the time reference.

If your problem is that you envision these natural tempo changes — assuming these are what you find problematic — but find it difficult to perform without a rhythmic reference that already uses these, then your focus could be on getting down these tempo changes with your rhythmic reference, either by editing them into the master, tapping it in or both.

When the rhythmic reference part — simple drum pattern, bass or whatever — is performing the "time" you need, then playing and recording your own performance should be a lot easier as you now have a reference that you hopefully can trust. Note that you can have multiple tempo master tracks, but only one can be active at a time.

It could also be that you, like me, have a natural proclivity for grooves, but that you don't always fully understand how they work technically, then you need to study these and possibly make use of the groove functionality in Live. Personally I couldn't do without it.

When learning about your musicality I think it's good to set aside sessions for listening, analyzing existing music as well as your own ideas and do focused training on the proficiency in the areas that you want to evolve.

I haven't had chance to try it, but potentially you could benefit from checking out the Group Humanizer MFL device a little later.

Stromkraft wrote:

CoreyJayzMusic wrote: basically the question is, lets say i wanted todo a track more focused on piano and vocals, do u have any "tips or logic or theory" on how to get those types of tracks more on-time

when i do find a "good bpm" or really try and stay in time with a selected BPM something just seems to be "off"?

OK, missed the later responses while writing so this may be totally off track:

To me it sounds like you do have a potentially correct instrument part that you envision having a natural flow with tempo changes. If this is correct your focus should be on getting this part down and using this as a tempo master track in Arrangement.

Then all other instruments would follow the tempo changes, even if they are heavily quantized as the tempo master track is the time reference.

If your problem is that you envision these natural tempo changes — assuming these are what you find problematic — but find it difficult to perform without a rhythmic reference that already uses these, then your focus could be on getting down these tempo changes with your rhythmic reference, either by editing them into the master, tapping it in or both.

When the rhythmic reference part — simple drum pattern, bass or whatever — is performing the "time" you need, then playing and recording your own performance should be a lot easier as you now have a reference that you hopefully can trust. Note that you can have multiple tempo master tracks, but only one can be active at a time.

It could also be that you, like me, have a natural proclivity for grooves, but that you don't always fully understand how they work technically, then you need to study these and possibly make use of the groove functionality in Live. Personally I couldn't do without it.

When learning about your musicality I think it's good to set aside sessions for listening, analyzing existing music as well as your own ideas and do focused training on the proficiency in the areas that you want to evolve.

I haven't had chance to try it, but potentially you could benefit from checking out the Group Humanizer MFL device a little later.

actually yeah, that sounds like me ''natural proclivity for grooves, but that you don't always fully understand how they work technically''

i know how groove feature works in ableton but don't use it really at all, i've used it a couple times but haven't really found myself going to it a lot no reason why.

im gonna read over your post a couple time to make sure i understand exactly what you're saying.

and yes, i've been interested for a while on doing what you said " I think it's good to set aside sessions for listening, analyzing existing music as well as your own ideas and do focused training on the proficiency in the areas that you want to evolve"

but don't really know where to start?

And im defenality gonna check out that M4L device.

thanks storm i really appreciate it!

CoreyJayzMusic wrote: i've been interested for a while on doing what you said " I think it's good to set aside sessions for listening, analyzing existing music as well as your own ideas and do focused training on the proficiency in the areas that you want to evolve"

but don't really know where to start?

I've found one of the better ways to understand my own rhythmical ideas is to record with "free" tempo and find a section that sounds right and focus the analysis on this section.

Sometimes I extract the groove from this section, quantize the original and reapply the groove on it testing with different percentages. Then I try one of the other grooves in the library and compare. I do the same with others' tracks that I like.

At the moment my focus is on learning to use different grooves for different drum voices. It's great fun actually.