My final words on DJs, composition and artistic merit

[montrealbreaks]

OK. I don't want to add to the noise floor here anymore - I've got to put in my $0.02 once and not repeat myself on this, since I can see it comes up again and again. I have to get this off my chest, but I won't repeat the points below ever again. Ever. That's a promise.

(though I might link to this thread...)

1. The dumbing down of Live 5 into an automatic beat detecting grid based DJ tool is tragic, but necessary for the survival of the corporate entity that is Ableton.

2. This dumbing down of Live as stated in point 1 will saturate the digital music performance labour market with every pinhead with an mp3 collection.

3. This saturation of the market will also erode Live's reputation as a tool for creative performers and composers. Promoters and punters will soon look on Live sets disdainfully as nothing requiring talent at all - and in many cases they will be right.

4. This dumbing down exacerbates the fact (yes, fact) that DJing is inheirently a no-talent activity when compared to live music creation. Why?

4.a. It is much easier to identify a good track, than it is to compose one on the fly.

4.b. Regarding the arguement that a DJs real talent is reading the crowd, an improvisational musician does the same on a higher order of magnitude...

4.c. Regarding the technical skill in mixing records, I learned in less than a two weeks. It's not hard, and Live 5 makes it even easier.

5. The arguement that "it's just about the music who cares how it's made" is infuriating. The lack of appreciation for effort and hard work is killing western civilization. The over-appreciation of DJs is just one of many symptoms of a sick society that values style over substance and worships immediate gratification without effort.

6. Turntablists are excluded from the above rant - they are truly musicians. As well, DJs who compose their own music or are musicians in their own right are excluded from most portions of the above rant - When composing they are at least engineers and artists.

'nuff said. I say the above now just to put it on the record and not have to speak of it again. I also promise not to post on Mac/PC debates or Sasha threads ever again.

[Ambioun - Techno Man]

I don't think they dumbed down Live by adding that but makes sampling your own stuff from other projects easier.

But i must agree. If you don't make the music. Your not an artist in any way. I'm a DJ and guess what, I COMPOSE AND PERFORM EVERY ASPECT OF MY MUSIC LIVE.

Regular CD Dj's are lame and overrated.

[djastroboy]

I wish I could find it now, but I once read an article about a music critic from the 1600's or something where the author claimed that the PIANO would ruin music because it was too loud.
Of course acoustic bass players look with utter disdain upon the electric bass players.
And don't forget that the only true music is the human voice howling with the wolves.
Or something. Whatever.

[timothyallan]

Well said, I wholeheartedly concur with Mr. Breaks.

[Komplex]

I found myself nodding to each point. Its true. All true...

Lets start a retro movement which emphasizes spontaneous live performances which aren't aided by computers, or at least the playback of pre-recorded audio files that are over one bar in length...

I'd be really keen to take part in a jam where everyone has one or two instruments that they are excellent at "playing". Whether its a drum machine, a keyboard synth or saxophone...

[dCross]

I wish I could find it now, but I once read an article about a music critic from the 1600's or something where the author claimed that the PIANO would ruin music because it was too loud.
Of course acoustic bass players look with utter disdain upon the electric bass players.
And don't forget that the only true music is the human voice howling with the wolves.
Or something. Whatever.

well said - snobbishness comes in waves. No sense paying attention to people rant about the uselessness of your craft, because someone more "avant garde" is likely ranting about the uselessness of theirs.

EDIT - stolen from another thread:

Why do people feel the need to validate what they do with others opinions? Whether you are a DJ, engineer. musician, composer, or whatever...if you are creating art that is straight from your heart, it shouldn't matter what anyone thinks is skill or not. Stay humble and do the best you can at what you do. That's all that really matters.

[futureproof]

you definately bring up some good points montreal.

the flip side is now that macs come with garageband, live supports mp3 and has instant warping EVERYONE and their mom will be DJ's and "producers".
But guess what? Most of them will suck ass and appreciate our stuff even more.

dabble in any art and your appreciation for those skilled in that field will undoubtedly grow.

[astar]

I have to agree here too with Mr Breaks. Ableton Live is an amazing concept but it has a long way to go before it will compete with REAL live music. We are confined to a grid and that can be very frustrating for those of us who actually play instruments. I have a love it or hate it relationship with Live for this reason. It is by far the most creative electronic sequencing tool but mixing pre-warped loops still falls way short of playing a real musical instrument.

The problem with sequenced music (it is doomed to be it's downfall until the end of time) is this "grid". Sure we have "groove quantize" (actually Live doesn't have it yet, grrr ) and other tricks but, for example, it is absolutely impossible to bring out the energy of an African drum circle in an electronically composed piece of music or by using a collection of recorded or sequenced drumloops. It's just not possible... there are live interdynamics, polyrhythms and human elements going on there that just can't be sequenced.

This is why DJs deserve less respect. I would rather see a good live band any day than listen to a guy who triggers pre-warped loops and has "good track selection".

That being said, there is still a huge amount of creative potential to be found in this software and that's why I bought LIVE and it's why I keep reading these forums because I know there are some of us devoted to squeezing the creative juice out of LIVE as best we can (to overshadow the 1000s of others who will be making horrible uninspired mash up remix tunes)

cheers
and good thread!

[::mic-minimal::]

i agree with most, but I don't agree with the notion that a 'dj' deserves 'less'
respect... I just think that the respect a dj should garn is for something different ie for djing, and a Live remixer for ie: remixing, and a studio musician for ie: making beats in the studio and so on

[::mic-minimal::]

oh and lets not forget the 'turntablist' for simply put turning the motherfucka out.

[astar]

i agree with most, but I don't agree with the notion that a 'dj' deserves 'less'
respect... I just think that the respect a dj should garn is for something different ie for djing, and a Live remixer for ie: remixing, and a studio musician for ie: making beats in the studio and so on

Okay yeah I was a little harsh there. I actually DO respect a lot of DJs but 99.9% of my favourite "musical artists" are composers, songwriters and bands. If you think about it the DJs would have nothing to play if it weren't for the composers, producers, musicians, etc.

If you were to list the great musical artists of the last century I doubt you would find many DJs up there. Maybe Kid Koala or QBert... But DJs (even if they're great) are not going to be anywhere close to a Bob Dylan, or The Beatles, etc. That's ridiculous. That's why in general I give less respect to DJs as far as calling them musical artists. If they are spinning their own compositions then that's a different story.

Straight up DJs who just spin tracks, no matter how good their track selection is, do not deserve as much respect musically as a musician who plays his own music live IMHO.

[AdamJay]

here's a couple factoids...

the most successful djs are either

A) successful producers
B) veterans that have been doing it for at least decades
C) have nice tits

of course there can be a mix of those. but with exception to the tits one, to "make it", dues certainly have to be paid. and i dont think that dues will be paid as fast by doing ableton dj sets as they have been by busting your ass with vinyl the way DJs have been doing it the last 20 years.

what am i saying?
i'm not worried about the influx of more mediocrity. yea it sucks, but it just makes me want to strive to peak my head above the rest more than ever.
competition is good no?

just something to chew on.
good thread though! however controversial it may be. it has to be acknowledged.

[ernene]

Montreal, you are absolutly wrong in everything except that everyone will be djing with an mp3 library (a lot of them are already doing that, even non musician are making "music" with live or FL from a while.... so what?, no news here....)

But what you said is like saying that now that I bought myself the best ball and the best sport shoes I'll be playing football like Pelè or Maradona!!!! f*ck, thats' soooo... well, non-sense....

If someone who knows nothing about making music will make it, or djing will mix... that's beautiful, I just can't imagine what Music-Maradonas or DjPelès will do with the same tools... mmmmmm

i'm not worried about the influx of more mediocrity. yea it sucks, but it just makes me want to strive to peak my head above the rest more than ever.
competition is good no?

si señor!

This will be fun (it is now, and will be even more, and more, and more ...)

[supster]

6. Turntablists are excluded from the above rant - they are truly musicians[/size]

you know, i totally dont see where doing "more with your hands" and being more busy is necessarily "better" or more worthy for its own sake.

turntablists have a skill but i honestly dont like what they do. from what i've heard and seen - and ive seen the mentality of some guys i know that are into that scene ... its mainly about competition and showing off.

music is totally secondary to most of them. its hand eye coodiation, technique and trickery. and it doesnt really connect with a dancefloor, or inspire too many people other than to impress them if its any good. people stand around and watch.

and i totally get the impression that a lot of the people that are hung up on the dance DJ thing honestly "get" it. dont understand the scene. dont understand the people that a part of it.

and honestly, probably dont dance

the DJ was never meant to be a superstar, they were always at the head of the party musically but a PART of the party. the real show is the people enjoying whats going on dancing and hanging out with the other people.

its about the crowd, its about having fun, and if what DJs do - and the music they play - has inspired all of those thousands and thousands of people over the years they must be doing something right. doesnt matter if by your standards its not "real musicianship"

most people just dont care.

also, DJs are the primary way electronic music is spread and heard. without techno, house, breaks, DnB, minimal, trance etc etc DJs doing what they do, what would we have for this form of music?

people sitting at home, or in thier cars alone, listening to obscure stuff they find?

again: guaranteed a LOT of the people that are hung up on this are not dancers - they dont relate to it so they miss the point. how do i know? i just do. can tell by the way they argue this. also ...

more than likely are way more uptight about impressing people with fancy moves and lots of control gizmos and analysis, and miss out on connecting with the people. just have this feeling.
.

[supster]

EDIT- double post