Ableton Forum

Wow! It really sucks




Okay so not Kompletely. I have an original MK1 Maschine that I pre-ordered back in 2009 or something like that. I upgraded to the V2.0 software when it came out because my fiancé was using it still and I thought she'd like the 2.0 software.
She's been busy with other things and hasn't used it in a while so I decided to mess around and see how I might be able to include it in my Ableton Live/Push workflow.
I like drums synths so the first thing I did was try the new drum synths, they sound very musical and seem very useful in the context of making music; wide sweet spots in other words.

So far so good. I also own Komplete 9 Ultimate so the access to all of those instruments and FX is also awesome, so many good presets there to start from and the browsing is really nice.

Next I start to work on something; I record a pattern... too short and it loops on it's self. I forget you have to specify the pattern length before you record (thank you Ableton for understanding music making). So I make a long pattern and just jam away. I had a few cool sections in the middle so I start to move the "start point" of the pattern.... where is that control? I decide to look for it in the software.... OMG you can't adjust the loop start point? You can't move the loop pattern? Oh you can just nudge into infinity until things move into place and shorten the loop? This will take forever just to experiment with parts of what I recorded...... I unplugged it and put it back where it came from... wow just wow, horrible sequencer workflow compared to Live and Push.

I can't imagine going back to that workflow again *shudders*

Damn it though if Native instruments doesn't make some nice "sounding" stuff.
I think I'll be getting to a point soon....

Those drum synths sound great IMO but I don't know if they are worth dealing with Maschine to use them... Any ideas there?

The only M4L drum synths I don't have are the Time and Timbre ones (I plan to get them soon). Can anyone say if they sound "musical" and have wide sweet spots, or just give an opinion on them?

I think I didn't realize how great Push and Live are until I tried something else again.

Anyway, if you're thinking about Maschine, make sure to try it first if at all possible. You may be horrified otherwise when you find out what the workflow is like.

I wish they would come out with just a little preset browser box with the screens of Maschine Studio but no keys, just a browser box for Komplete Kontrol or that Komplete Kontrol Plugin could be controlled by Push... seems like there's always something.

Every instrument comes with limitations, you gotta work with them not against. It's not like Pushs aren't legion.

So what was the point of your fanboy rant again?!

TomViolenz wrote:Every instrument comes with limitations, you gotta work with them not against. It's not like Pushs aren't legion.

So what was the point of your fanboy rant again?!

Did you read past the part where I said I'd be getting to a point soon?

I know, I was just sharing my opinion about how I recently discovered that Machine sucks to me again and appreciate Push more because of it. It's a thing that happens in life, a lesson of sorts; you get used to something and you forget the good things until you realize how bad it "could" be and then you appreciate what you have more. I also agree that you should work with the limitations (and I like limitations and even create imaginary ones for myself) but that one seemed to stop me in my tracks; I didn't even want to go down that road but in doing so I discovered the drum synths.

So... it comes around again... the real point was to ask about the drum synths, as in the questions later in the original post. A side point was to warn people not to get pulled in by the pretty lights and high res screens of the Maschine Studio without trying it out. It was like some pre-cursor story to what led me to ask about the synths and made me think of the point that I'd be upset if I bought Maschine only to find out that you can't change the start of the pattern. So yes my thoughts spilled out and soiled your cereal I'm me and I say things you may not follow sometimes and if you did you may wonder why you took the time to follow me: Hello I'm Airyck it's nice to meet you again

I don't really see it as a this or that kind of situation.

Maschine can be used as a standalone program or a vst. What is possible is to use Push to load it as a drum rack or instrument, and then control the Maschine aspects using Maschine itself. When it uses devices contained within it, it has very powerful control. Arguably more control than Push by default for third party vsts.

But if you just like the drum synths, you could just make a simple version racked up that has macros to favorite parameters (which you'd control all using Push). Or have Maschine next to Push for all drum-related business, and Push for controlling Live (not that vise-versa isn't also possible with Maschine's Live midi control mode).

In the latest updates (now at ver. 2.3) it has a more pleasant reverb, several extra drumsynth modes for each device, and a hold featire for their nifty arpeggiator. I'd glance especially at the video about the drum synth updates on the NI page. I think it is about 5 min or less.

Still, at the end of the day, it depends on your workflow, table space, and personal taste.

yur2die4 wrote:I don't really see it as a this or that kind of situation.

Maschine can be used as a standalone program or a vst. What is possible is to use Push to load it as a drum rack or instrument, and then control the Maschine aspects using Maschine itself. When it uses devices contained within it, it has very powerful control. Arguably more control than Push by default for third party vsts.

But if you just like the drum synths, you could just make a simple version racked up that has macros to favorite parameters (which you'd control all using Push). Or have Maschine next to Push for all drum-related business, and Push for controlling Live (not that vise-versa isn't also possible with Maschine's Live midi control mode).

In the latest updates (now at ver. 2.3) it has a more pleasant reverb, several extra drumsynth modes for each device, and a hold featire for their nifty arpeggiator. I'd glance especially at the video about the drum synth updates on the NI page. I think it is about 5 min or less.

Still, at the end of the day, it depends on your workflow, table space, and personal taste.

Thanks, these are all good ideas. I do like how it sounds I just hate the sequencer so something like this could do the trick. I haven't used Maschine in ages so everything is foreign to me again I'm just trying to get some ideas from people who already use it on how it might be able to be used better so it doesn't just sit here and go to waste.

man I was hoping for a better review. I really like Push, but it doesn't work rewired into DP8, and Maschine has that appeal.. cross DAW etc.

Going to see how clunky it is to use Live synced to DP8 via MTC and Soundflower, but yeah, touchier "Rewire" type situation isn't optimal.

The other option is to see how well thought out Beatstep Pro is.

I dont own Maschine but do own other kit that can be used standalone or with live (sparkLe for instance) if I compare the sequencing potential of the two when in live sparkLe might come up short but in reality SparkLe gives me a different way of approaching the `canvas` and potentially very different results even when using similar methods. In a nutshell try and work to the instruments strengths or learn to love the apparent weaknesses.

Imo Timbre strength is the quickness and versatility of percussive sound design it's less about polish and mix ready sounds and more about creative potential revealed by tinkering. Have fun!

Airyck wrote:Wow! It really sucks :lol:

That's how I feel. Good to know I'm not alone. I love Komplete!

I have a mkI also. I tried version 2 soft hoping for something functional. Eventually i gave up and got a push. Its like they took the worst idea for a sequencer/arranger and ran with it.

Airyck wrote:

TomViolenz wrote:Every instrument comes with limitations, you gotta work with them not against. It's not like Pushs aren't legion.

So what was the point of your fanboy rant again?!

Did you read past the part where I said I'd be getting to a point soon?

I know, I was just sharing my opinion about how I recently discovered that Machine sucks to me again and appreciate Push more because of it. It's a thing that happens in life, a lesson of sorts; you get used to something and you forget the good things until you realize how bad it "could" be and then you appreciate what you have more. I also agree that you should work with the limitations (and I like limitations and even create imaginary ones for myself) but that one seemed to stop me in my tracks; I didn't even want to go down that road but in doing so I discovered the drum synths.

So... it comes around again... the real point was to ask about the drum synths, as in the questions later in the original post. A side point was to warn people not to get pulled in by the pretty lights and high res screens of the Maschine Studio without trying it out. It was like some pre-cursor story to what led me to ask about the synths and made me think of the point that I'd be upset if I bought Maschine only to find out that you can't change the start of the pattern. So yes my thoughts spilled out and soiled your cereal I'm me and I say things you may not follow sometimes and if you did you may wonder why you took the time to follow me: Hello I'm Airyck it's nice to meet you again

Why do I think your post is a useless, misdirected rant?

1.) Sucks! Really?! Are you 12?
2.) If you really need to vent that anger, why not do it where it belongs?! The NI forums!
3.) Why would we care that you think something sucks? No one asked the question of you.
4.) Maschine vs. Push threads already have a history here and consequently a bad reputation. They turn into flame fests in a heart beat even when the OP was genuinely interested in a discussion about each ones merits. Which you are clearly not, otherwise why start with such a lede and an already formed opinion. IMO you wanted another one of these very predictable flame threads. Why not do a Mac vs. PC thread instead
5.) The fanboyism towards Push in your OP is nauseating. Pushs issues are legion. You mention none of them.
6.) What's that bullshit about warning others? Maschine is a well established product many people are very happy with. Not a fluke or scam anyone needs to be warned about.

No dog in this fight but Maschine is fine, i use it in tandem with Live for all my drums and percussion, also as an fx unit and yo can switch instances and have immediate control of parameters so can have an multifx setup with things like traktors 12 and the finger.

I always build my tracks in maschine and take them into Live, a lot of people do that cause of the sequencer limitations, need to be able to decouple patterns from the grid, maschine is to rigid in that respect so i just build up 16 bar phrases. Requested it in the past but seems to not be in NIs vision for maschine.

But if you want to see what can be done with it there are hundreds of videos on youtube, jeremy ellis is pretty handy with the pads.

TomViolenz wrote:

Airyck wrote:

TomViolenz wrote:Every instrument comes with limitations, you gotta work with them not against. It's not like Pushs aren't legion.

So what was the point of your fanboy rant again?!

Did you read past the part where I said I'd be getting to a point soon?

I know, I was just sharing my opinion about how I recently discovered that Machine sucks to me again and appreciate Push more because of it. It's a thing that happens in life, a lesson of sorts; you get used to something and you forget the good things until you realize how bad it "could" be and then you appreciate what you have more. I also agree that you should work with the limitations (and I like limitations and even create imaginary ones for myself) but that one seemed to stop me in my tracks; I didn't even want to go down that road but in doing so I discovered the drum synths.

So... it comes around again... the real point was to ask about the drum synths, as in the questions later in the original post. A side point was to warn people not to get pulled in by the pretty lights and high res screens of the Maschine Studio without trying it out. It was like some pre-cursor story to what led me to ask about the synths and made me think of the point that I'd be upset if I bought Maschine only to find out that you can't change the start of the pattern. So yes my thoughts spilled out and soiled your cereal I'm me and I say things you may not follow sometimes and if you did you may wonder why you took the time to follow me: Hello I'm Airyck it's nice to meet you again

Why do I think your post is a useless, misdirected rant?

1.) Sucks! Really?! Are you 12?
2.) If you really need to vent that anger, why not do it where it belongs?! The NI forums!
3.) Why would we care that you think something sucks? No one asked the question of you.
4.) Maschine vs. Push threads already have a history here and consequently a bad reputation. They turn into flame fests in a heart beat even when the OP was genuinely interested in a discussion about each ones merits. Which you are clearly not, otherwise why start with such a lede and an already formed opinion. IMO you wanted another one of these very predictable flame threads. Why not do a Mac vs. PC thread instead
5.) The fanboyism towards Push in your OP is nauseating. Pushs issues are legion. You mention none of them.
6.) What's that bullshit about warning others? Maschine is a well established product many people are very happy with. Not a fluke or scam anyone needs to be warned about.

1) Is there something wrong with 12 year olds, and why should they be the only ones who can use the word Suck, I know a lot of good uses of Suck(ing), oh shit I'm being 12 again I forgot this a forum for adults "Ableton XXX!!!!!" or wait that makes sucking an Adult thing; so is it a 12 year old thing or and Adult thing now I'm confused, whats new. See I'm okay with who I am, I can joke, I can be a child, and I can be an adult when I want to. You should be more accepting of younger people (or different people for that matter, dumb ones too, not everyone is as good at life as you Tom <3 ) how do you know how old I am anyway; I'm 6 years old actually; I joined this forum when I was born. It was an experiment for my parents who are Ableton Live and now Push "Fanboys" to see what would happen if a child was placed on the Ableton forums shortly after being born and spent much time there interacting with others. So far it's been a total failure and they are considering aborting the whole operation, finally pulling the hanger out of my head once and for all.

In fact I think it's good to joke around be a little more light hearted about things, you could use a little (I think, maybe not). Wheeee... take it or leave it, I'm not intentionally hurting anybody or interfering with their free will so therefore I'm not doing anything wrong and you won't convince me otherwise. * we should hang out sometime, where do you live? Also if I'm being mean it's to a big giant company with grown ups that can handle it while you're being potentially mean to someone young, impulsive, and impressionable. You could really send them down an irrepairable path of negativity and self loathing... risky there buddy . You could break that little tiny bit of self confidence they have and alter the course of their life. Positive breeds positive. Try to be more careful with people, they are fragile. Native Instruments is not fragile in comparison.

2) It's not Anger, I actually don't really get angry hardly ever (sometimes with myself, and occasionally when people hurt me). It's simply me being shocked with what I ran into and there are other people who agree with me about the downsides I mentioned. There was actually someone (I won't name) in this thread who said they appreciated that they weren't alone in this feeling so I think you may have missed something Tom

3) I didn't ask you to read my post and I don't care that you don't like it I'm gonna say what I want to say. Some people care whether or not I think something sucks. I have posted many times on this forum helping other people, striking up thoughts and provoking conversation about things, my opinion could matter to some (it doesn't to you and thats okay) and is that if you are coming from Push and Ableton Live you should really try Maschine before you use it (as an experienced Push and Live user). Are "you" seriously going to tell me that if I have nothing nice to say then don't say anything at all cause thats pretty much what you said, you don't believe that do you? I like you Tom (at least the internet you), you always stick your foot into everything and cause chaos and say a lot of bad things that most people won't say, you're smart and you have a lot of great ideas that help a lot of people including me so definitely say what you think here about my "rant". I believe that people shouldn't just be all smiles and nice stuff so in the rare occasion I want to have a pissy rant if thats what it seems like (and it is actually rare) just let me have it

5-7 (because I don't want to "win" with you).

I actually mention a bunch of "good" things about Maschine if you would just get the first "JOKING" line (hence the and the "Not Kompletely") part of my post out of your heart for a second. I'm not writing a review here, I'm simply stating my experience in a scene by scene story of what happened to me in the moment. It's meant to be brief and simply draw in conversation about it. You're the only one starting anything close to flaming. Yes I mention bad things but honestly mention more good than bad. And why mention anything about Push seeing that people here already know about Push. I know what it's like always looking to the next thing that might be the ticket to the music making freedom and workflow you've always dreamed. Some people are like me and will relate, others are not and will think I'm just making a pointless rant (I won't mention any names ).

Anyway Tom, I actually am very light hearted and I tried to make a point of mentioning the good things along with the bad things.

Also... whats with the Fanboy shit? It's like you're telling people that it's not good to be really into something and like something a lot and share that with the world. Why would you step on someones happiness? Thats kinda messed up man, maybe you should re-consider using it so much and suck it up and just deal with the people being happy even if it annoys you. Maybe you should think about why it annoys you too...

You have completely ignored my part of the post about the drum synths; I feel like you're nit picking and trying to start an argument, you're not are you?


Lotsa love Tom
Machine's Sequencer S.U.C.K.S.!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA take that!!! does it sting... you're so annoyed aren't you? man I'm so good at pushing your buttons. Do you want to date? maybe we should get married, I'm not normally into guys but man....well lets date first...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=209604
Isn't this a rant from you? So APC mini is a "Piece of Shit" is the adult thing to say? I have a lot to learn, so If I swear it's an Adult thing, but saying "suck" which isn't a swear word is childish... sorry I can't help myself

Personally I've been really happy with Maschine lately, it's more or less been all I've using in fact (I have the Studio version). Great sounds, quick to get ideas down, and of course like you mention the color screens for browsing are really excellent. I just like how easy it is to add effects and new sounds to my current ideas, and editing things after the fact is hands down the best out there since you don't even need to look at the computer.

But, like you mention the workflow in other areas can be hit or miss depending on what you're expecting. I think a lot of people come to MAschine expecting it to work like a DAW, when in reality it's more or less going for the MPC/groovebox style of recording. Mostly loop based, though I do find that having a decent template project set up with my preferred pattern lengths, colors, and such really helps keep things fluid.

Not sure what to add abou the drum synths, they sound great and are easy to tweak. Huge sweet spots in terms of dialing in nice sounds from the knobs too. Here's a cool video NI just posted with the two guys who created most of the drum synths, I think that part starts around 32 minutes in or so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbRKroTuJG4

Airyck wrote: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=209604
Isn't this a rant from you? So APC mini is a "Piece of Shit" is the adult thing to say? I have a lot to learn, so If I swear it's an Adult thing, but saying "suck" which isn't a swear word is childish... sorry I can't help myself

I never said you shouldn't rant. The only thing I said is that I find it pointless and that it annoys me.
I grant you your right to express yourself freely, just as I take mine. There was nothing personal about it and my comment should not be read as a value judgement on my part on what kind of poster you are outside of this pointless thread

And yes: that is my thread (kinda hijacked by Buleriack for his griefs).

If you read it you will find a difference between a warranted rant and an unwarranted one.

The APC Mini does certain things not, that should be normal for ANY Midi Controller (i.e. one should at least be able to, you know, Midi assign things to the grid without major hacks). Further the Midi implimentation is broken. The Midi port doesn't cease connecting/disconnecting to Live in sets that have lots of other Midi assignements. Rendering it pretty much useless for me. You don't find this information on Akais website nor on the websites of stores.
Further the APC Mini is clearly marketed for use with Live, so a rant here is very topical and a warning to other Live users warranted. (Also Akai doesn't really have a forum. I wonder why )
While your grievances are about design decisions that have been known for years to anyone buying it. And people, who would buy it for the "pretty lights" would not first check the Ableton forums (of all places!) anyways.

Not to forget that much of your complaint should be attributed to personal preferences and not a problem with Maschine per se. It's also one of the best Midi controllers I ever bought. Its ControllerEditor makes it a joy to use and the native script for Live is highly acclaimed. And that you decided to treat your Maschine as a hand me down to your girlfriend for years, and not use it to its full potential is really your loss.

While Push, the 500€ Controller from Ableton can not be used as a Midi Controller in Live (or anywhere else) out of the box. At all! (like the APC Mini mentioned above btw.)
And once you start trying to do it through workarounds you realize what a huge undertaking that would be.

And that's not even talking about that much of the potential it could have in Live has been grossly neglected and if NativeKontrol would not have released PXT for it (and we wouldn't have fixed one of the biggest half-assedness with the Community mapping), I would have resold it ages ago.

And that btw. is what's wrong with being a fanboy, not seeing the errors in the product one endorses while bashing the competing product. One should leave that to the marketing departments of either company IMO.

Btw. I agree that Maschines sequencer is not so great and the fact that you can't move the start marker even with the mouse is a.) very limiting and b.) incomprehensible. (I stopped using the Maschine software years ago because Lives sequencer is much, much better. But then Live is a DAW and Maschine, as Tarekith pointed out, a Groovebox. So that should be expected ). And in a thread that would have been squarely aimed at someone finding out its strength and weaknesses, I myself would have made sure to mention these aspects.

As it is this was just a pointless rant in a venue that in the best of cases is the wrong one and more honestly you just use as a stage for trolling.

I mean, do you go to Macrumors.com to start a thread about how much PCs suck?!

There is actually one feature for pattern/clip making that I'm very enthusiastic about with Maschine vs Push.

I do love Live's ability to create clips of a length not-yet-determined by triggering a clip and it recording until retriggering again.

But if you've ever attempted to use Push's fixed length button... It is so unpredictable that there is a thread dedicated to it. In Maschine, it is as if the clip already exists and all you have to do is select it, and it is free to record into. Yeah, unfortunately it is a fixed length in advance, but in situations where that is exactly what you need it is the smoothest workflow that you will find.

My only gripe with that was that I couldn't use a second controller to 'create patterns super fast willy nilly' without having to switch the dang Pads to pattern mode. Since the 2 upgrade, I haven't attempted what is essentially my ultimate Maschine dream... (One of many, my other fun one is to create patterns of arrangements using the Sampler without any sounds in it yet, then randomly recording sounds into it)

The ability to quickly create patterns in rapid succession which can be variations of beats and fills.

What makes this perfect for Maschine, especially inside Live is:
a, Maschine can switch between patterns at low launch quantizations in a sort of legato manner without waiting for the next selected pattern, and without going out of sync. It does this verrrry fluently.

b, If you could trigger these latterns using external midi notes, then you could record the changes of patterns externally from a clip made in Live!

As I mentioned before, in version 1 I was unable to assign Pattern change (only scene) to midi notes. And so I would have to either use the pads in Pattern mode (so now I can't play more sounds), or I'd have to use Scene mode (not as flexible/fun), and this technique is benefitted by being able to record my actions (midi clip in Live). I'm going to have a play this morning and see if I am able to in version 2.