Electronic music live on stage, what is the point!

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Angstrom
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Electronic music live on stage, what is the point!

Post by Angstrom » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:06 pm

Ok, got your attention then!

This has been bugging me for a while, like about ten years. It's a huge subject so apologies for the huge rant!

Electronic musicians pretending to play should get a life
I'm watching Royksopp on stage at Glastonbury on my TV right now. Lots of touching knobs on synths that arent plugged in, including my old favourite bit of window dressing the MS20. No patch cables, no audio output cable. Nice. :roll:

What is the point?

What is the point of standing there in front of a crowd pretending to play music, no sign of any charisma .. just nodding and touching dials?
Of course the crowd applaud at the end of each song, but it just seems extremely lame to me. Boybands mime, where is th ecredibility in miming 90% of a set?

They aren't the only ones of course, it's rife. I know loads of big name electronic acts who do anything from play a DAT (!) all the way through, to heavily sequenced four bar samples triggered by an industrial unit, while beautiful hired hands and expensive light try to con the audience with an elaborate mime.

electronic musicians nodding like car shelf ornaments watching a timeline

Do you ever think, I dont really need to be here, I have engineered my set just to have a special 'glamour shot' noise to trigger, but I could easilly press 'go' and it would all work fine, the audience wouldn't actually notice. If 90% of the audio is automated, why exactly are people pretending to turn dials? There is a submereged knowledge that it is basically a con.

showmanship and the lack of it
Obviously showmanship is crucial to making good entertainment, even cheesy guitar histrionics on a 3 note solo.. but surely the point is lost when the 'showmanship' consists of nodding like a car ornament and the audio is unrelated to the movements made.

no visible cause and effect in electronic music
Electronic music just doesnt look good right now, at least with 'traditional' acts you know that when the blokes stop moving about the music will stop - but with electronics there is no cause and effect. Two guys touch dials and gurn and a loud noise happens, two guys stop and light a ciggie .. noise stays exactly the same!


What is the reason that we are standing up there, to trigger a 'boom' sample on time once or twice in a song?

really, I'm sick of it.

make the DJ booth bigger!
It makes sense to me in the DJ booth, Electronic music(in its currently popular form) from the DJ booth seems correct. You aren't meant to spend all night looking at a DJ - you are meant to dance and give the guy the occaisional glance. But if we are to be on a stage with everyone watching ... it seems to me that the mode of expression is outdated.

If you went to a ballet or a play and they showed a film instead the occaisional dancer wandering on... surely you would feel short changed.

Truth in performance
Popular Electronic music is not about visible performance .. it is about studio sounds which can take a long time to make, which are difficult to create. If people really watched us making our music it would take about a month for them to see one song be 'created' from scratch!

It just so happens that traditional acts can make a song from scratch with just a guitar a memory and ten fingers. We cant, isn't it time we re-invented the way that electronic music is played live into a more honest way?

What's the solution?
I know a good few people on this forum perform more 'live' than most electronic acts, so I wonder what you all think about the huge amount of laptop 'nodding dog' acts out there. How do you make an electronic performance more honest? Is electronic music actually suited to an 1800s style theatrical stage at all?


</rant>

leisuremuffin
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Re: Electronic music live on stage, what is the point!

Post by leisuremuffin » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:17 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Electronic musicians pretending to play should get a life
I'm watching Royksopp on stage at Glastonbury on my TV right now. Lots of touching knobs on synths that arent plugged in, including my old favourite bit of window dressing the MS20. No patch cables, no audio output cable. Nice. :roll:

Sure it wasn't the ms20 controller for the legacy collection?


as for the rest of it:

watching robert fripp play isn't exciting to watch, but is really great to listen to.


I don't think that music needs to be a spectacle at all. It's supposed to be for listening, right?



-lm
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Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:24 pm

I don't think that music needs to be a spectacle at all. It's supposed to be for listening, right?
it's not about the spectacle, its about the point.

I was always pretty bored watching all bands, I 'saw' Ravi Shankar play last weekend and spent a third of the time with my eyes closed.

But he was actually playing! That's the point.

He wasnt touching a box and pretending to make sound. He was up there because he had to be there for the notes to come out.

hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:30 pm

Do you guys know Bill Bailey?
A stand-up comediant. But very skilled when it comes to music.
Here's a picture of him performing a portishead-adaption of "zippedeedoodaa"
:wink:

Image

hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:31 pm

Btw. try guessing how many of that stuff he uses at once :wink:

LOFA
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Post by LOFA » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:39 pm

So I have this old bootleg of Faith No more from, like, 1993 (Angle Dust tour), and Mike Patton is playing at this legendary show in Spain where the crowd throws a bottle onto the stage, and he encourages it, and, like, things get really rowdy.

Anyway, during this show there is a great quote where he says "You see all those amps in there? Theres nothing in there! But GODDAMMIT THEY LOOK GOOD- RIGHT!" then he points at something else and states (it is unclear from the recording "but in here? there's nothing but pure heavy metal in here!" and the crowd, who between language barriers and all the noise just go ape and love everything he says.

First off I always thought it was cool that Mr Patton managed to create further intimacy by dispelling with an aesthetic illusion.

Second, I find it really interesting how even when he tried to sabotage the illusion, his charisma reinforced the act.

My final point is that when people go to a show, sometimes they want the answer key to every problem they couldn't reverse engineer from their home recording, and other times they just want to throw a hole bunch of glass bottles at some attention starved ham!

Oink. 8O

Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:07 pm

I saw a really quite poncey record label favourite pop-rock act a few years back, a pretty traditional line up. But they had a guy in who did lots of small sequency bits in each track. Probably required him to be alert an push a button for just 2 suirty squirt noises in each song.
What got me was that when he wasn't required, he wandered to the front of the stage and slapped hands with the crowd, wiggled his arse in their faces .. etc. He was ignoring his gear until his bit, when he actually had to go over there and make his noise.
Instead of pretending to play something or nodding embarasedly in silence .. he was really pissing the lead singer off by stealing the limelight by just walking around and smoking a fag like a cross between mick Jagger and Mark E Smith chatting to the crowd! They went nuts for it.
I had to congratulate him on it, I hadn't considered that aproach before.

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Re: Electronic music live on stage, what is the point!

Post by Komplex » Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:48 pm

Angstrom wrote:Ok, got your attention then!

This has been bugging me for a while, like about ten years. It's a huge subject so apologies for the huge rant!

Electronic musicians pretending to play should get a life
I'm watching Royksopp on stage at Glastonbury on my TV right now. Lots of touching knobs on synths that arent plugged in, including my old favourite bit of window dressing the MS20. No patch cables, no audio output cable. Nice. :roll:

What is the point?

What is the point of standing there in front of a crowd pretending to play music, no sign of any charisma .. just nodding and touching dials?
Of course the crowd applaud at the end of each song, but it just seems extremely lame to me. Boybands mime, where is th ecredibility in miming 90% of a set?

They aren't the only ones of course, it's rife. I know loads of big name electronic acts who do anything from play a DAT (!) all the way through, to heavily sequenced four bar samples triggered by an industrial unit, while beautiful hired hands and expensive light try to con the audience with an elaborate mime.

electronic musicians nodding like car shelf ornaments watching a timeline

Do you ever think, I dont really need to be here, I have engineered my set just to have a special 'glamour shot' noise to trigger, but I could easilly press 'go' and it would all work fine, the audience wouldn't actually notice. If 90% of the audio is automated, why exactly are people pretending to turn dials? There is a submereged knowledge that it is basically a con.

showmanship and the lack of it
Obviously showmanship is crucial to making good entertainment, even cheesy guitar histrionics on a 3 note solo.. but surely the point is lost when the 'showmanship' consists of nodding like a car ornament and the audio is unrelated to the movements made.

no visible cause and effect in electronic music
Electronic music just doesnt look good right now, at least with 'traditional' acts you know that when the blokes stop moving about the music will stop - but with electronics there is no cause and effect. Two guys touch dials and gurn and a loud noise happens, two guys stop and light a ciggie .. noise stays exactly the same!


What is the reason that we are standing up there, to trigger a 'boom' sample on time once or twice in a song?

really, I'm sick of it.

make the DJ booth bigger!
It makes sense to me in the DJ booth, Electronic music(in its currently popular form) from the DJ booth seems correct. You aren't meant to spend all night looking at a DJ - you are meant to dance and give the guy the occaisional glance. But if we are to be on a stage with everyone watching ... it seems to me that the mode of expression is outdated.

If you went to a ballet or a play and they showed a film instead the occaisional dancer wandering on... surely you would feel short changed.

Truth in performance
Popular Electronic music is not about visible performance .. it is about studio sounds which can take a long time to make, which are difficult to create. If people really watched us making our music it would take about a month for them to see one song be 'created' from scratch!

It just so happens that traditional acts can make a song from scratch with just a guitar a memory and ten fingers. We cant, isn't it time we re-invented the way that electronic music is played live into a more honest way?

What's the solution?
I know a good few people on this forum perform more 'live' than most electronic acts, so I wonder what you all think about the huge amount of laptop 'nodding dog' acts out there. How do you make an electronic performance more honest? Is electronic music actually suited to an 1800s style theatrical stage at all?


</rant>
You know that it just comes down to money for some of these guys. Touring makes up probably most of the money they earn from music... and they get to travel. Fair enough I reckon. If the crowd/people are dumb enough to not care or call them out, its their fault! It'll keep happening untill people are fed up enough.

Komplex
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Post by Komplex » Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:49 pm

Angstrom wrote: Instead of pretending to play something or nodding embarasedly in silence .. he was really pissing the lead singer off by stealing the limelight by just walking around and smoking a fag like a cross between mick Jagger and Mark E Smith chatting to the crowd! They went nuts for it.
I had to congratulate him on it, I hadn't considered that aproach before.
hehe, awesome!

mosca
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Post by mosca » Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:54 pm

they were using MS20 controllers (2 of them) and they were both plugged in. as was the MS2000 the Korg Trinitron and the roland drum pads

all running thru a makie cfx12 with some boss pedals - all plugged in

mo

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Post by lanimascura » Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:01 am

maybe this point was already made. but i didnt wanna bother reading it all. I think people go see electronic musicians live just for the atmosphere and energy. the loud pumping through the PA n shit. who gives a fuck where its comin from. its sounds to shake your ass too. and that sounds like a good time to me.
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mike holiday
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Post by mike holiday » Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:19 am

does the same thing go for dj's who don't mix???

how many pop acts do this same thing??
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Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:52 am

I dont really care if people aren't doing anything. My point is that they should be more honest in their performances instead of trying for some weird 'Oh yes I'm mixing this' face when they just aren't. An old friend of mine used to 'DJ' his famous london club night by putting a DAT on. No-one ever complained - they liked the tunes. He used to wander off and have a smoke. Not exactly giving the crowd their monies worth IMO. But at least he didnt wince over a mixer touching the knobs ever 5 seconds.


RE: Royksop's MS20s - I thought they looked like original ms20's, they have 1/4 inch jacks and full size keys & the knobs are bigger than the Legacy controller.
I've had 2 originals for a long time now, so I'm pretty sure.
Anyway .. the only cable coming out the back was a grey mains cable.

Also - On an original MS20 the audio output is on the front panel.
The one of theirs I saw a closeup of had no audio output and no audio input either, or patch leads, or midi or USB.
The guy on the drum pads seemed to be playing .. but the extra flams/ grace notes didn't fit with his strokes - I highly suspected that was a prop too.

regardless of whatever Roysop are doing or aren't .. my point was simply emphasised by them. Some might say they were playing live, some might say they were miming 100% .. but if you saw a traditional act play live you would know straight away .. these guys are making this noise, now!

It is the same a local club I go to where small acts play on laptops on the stage, a large part of the music does not require them to be there. It is nowhere near specific to one band .. it is endemic to popular electronic music.
If most electronic acts stopped moving, didnt touch anything - the music would contine without pause to the end of the set.

it's a sham

I'm sure most of you have toured enough to see this 'touching the dial while bobbing my head with an ernest expression' type of performance.It is rife and has been for years. These acts would be better suited setting up where the FOH desk is, they would get a much better picture and it is a more honest representation of what is going on.
Last edited by Angstrom on Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

incinereight
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Post by incinereight » Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:17 am

I don't think it has anything to do with someone just twiddling knobs every now and then being a "sham"

in a "real" band .. the bass player plays the bass ... that, and eyes his beer ... the drummer does his bump of china white and plays the drums .... the singer mainlines his choice and rambles incoherently .... every person does one thing .. so there ya go.

In an electronic live show ... one person can only play one thing at a time ... just like in a "real" band ... my usual live arrangements have 20+ things going on .. I can only play a few live ...

it's not a sham it's just the way things are. Of course not having shit plugged in is one thing but playing what you can is another ...

and really, think about it ... people at clubs are there to hit on each other and get ripped .... unless you are the chemical brothers or some big name electronic act ... nobody cares what the hell you are up to and to think they do is to overestimate your importance.

Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:29 am

incinereight wrote:I don't think it has anything to do with someone just twiddling knobs every now and then being a "sham"
it's not that that is the sham .. that's fine, dont care about how much it takes to make a nice noise. If it only takes a few button pushes and the crowd like it then good. If the guy can only control one element out of 20 then fine, do that.

But in the moments in between, when the 'performer' is not required to push any buttons, when he knows his next bit is in 30 seconds or more, that's when I see geeks frozen in time pretending to be micro-controlling some vital parameter when it is obvious they arent. Stop fakin! Chill out and deal with the crowd a bit instead.

see my example of the guy in the pop-rock act. Did his bit and wandered about. Great.

unfortunately that is sooo rare.

most common tactic is 'hide behind gear and look intensely technical'

being on a stage IS a privilege, I just wish that some of these fools took the opportunity to have a bit more fun up there in stead of acting like they have to look busy incase the supervisor comes round.

I mean FFS, instead of pretending to touch a dial that no fucker in the crowd knows what it does - why dont they go and wave themselves about a bit.

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